Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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BEAST
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST »

Tchernobog wrote:
I too have a soft spot for JK, and I recently played through it again over the summer as my main machine was down and I was stuck on an old Dell D600 laptop. I certainly find it better than JK II, which I played for the first time last June following the source code release, which was amusing but did lack the depth and detail of the original.
Agreed. JK II was brilliant gameplay wise, and had some really well done ideas, but it screws up in areas where it should have succeeded. Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force and Return to Castle Wolfenstein has awesome stealth levels, while JK II's stealth levels can easily be beaten by just standing in front of the alarm. Those other games have great AI, while JKII's A.I. is infuriatingly annoying. The weapons in EF and RtCW are great, while JK II's are weak. And generally, JK II's story and levels miss the mark on what made DF, JK, and MotS great games in the first place. I was hoping that JK II would take the best elements of all the Dark Forces games, and combine them with Deus Ex 1's or Half-Life's. After playing Elite Force, I'm amazed that Raven didn't keep in mind of what worked in that game. I'm guessing that Raven did better with EF because they were more familiar with Star Trek and its settings and characters. They also had the benefit of having the entire Voyager cast voice act for the game. JK II only has Billy Dee Williams as a recurring voice actor, and uses only a fraction of stuff used in the expanded universe novels about the Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. Come to think of it, it just merely makes small references to what happened in JK and DF, and doesn't have levels which revisit the Valley of the Jedi or Sulon (Kyle's homeworld). The Shadow Trooper was a great tribute to the Dark Trooper from DF1, and Galak Fyar's boss fight was definitely a clever little tribute to General Mohc. Parts of Nar Shadda are well done, and Cloud City is my favorite section, but the levels are not same caliber as DF or JK. The Reborn, Tavion, the Shadow Troopers, and Desann all fight like each other, and don't have little to set themselves apart from each other. That's what made JK's Dark Jedi so well done: they all were distinguished from each other, had their own little powers, and didn't at all fight the same way. Interestingly, JK II was done around the same time as Soldier of Fortune II, which looked like JK II but had a LOT of problems with its stealth gameplay, combat, and save system.

The Dark Forces mod for JA (incomplete) is closer to what I would have liked for a DF/JK installment, though it still has some of those A.I. problems.
That being said, sometimes JK can be a bit too heavy for its own good, bogging down due to the weight of its own ideas.
I think I understand what you mean by that. The management of Force Powers is a little clunky as was managing Deus Ex 1's augmentations. Force Jump can be awkward, since it is a different button from the regular jump, and you have to charge up before leaping (and get hurt if you leap wrong). The enemies have this annoying tendency to shoot lasers from other angles of their bodies instead of being straight from the gun barrel, and can be a little too quick to shoot. It is possible to be stealthy in the game, even though the AI is very sensitive and can be alert to your presence before you can lightsaber them up. Still: The Baron's Head level? You could choose to liberate Pedestrian's homes from thugs, save Pedestrians from being mugged, and even choose to kill all the aliens in the bar who are punching each other just for the hell of it. The secret areas are well implemented, and I just love exploring and interacting with the city.

But I do concur there are times when its not fun, like when I can't dispatch enemies quickly with one laser shot from my more accurate Bryar Pistol or from the Blaster Rifle before they find out where I am. And the jumping from air pipe to air pipe on that enormous Imperial tower never fails to make me nervous.
Blood II at least excels as a light fun shooter which utilizes much of the core dynamic that was in the original - going through creative destructible environments with a wide arsenal of satisfying weaponry and the best talkative protagonist ever to grace a video game.
When played on the Genocide skill, Blood II does excel as a light shooter. The enemies can pop and be torn like tissue paper sculptures filled with blood and guts. It's just that when it's played on Homicide and Suicide that it's not so fun, with my ammo being chewed up fighting those freaking Shikari. And Caleb's one-liners do work very well in the game, and I like how each weapon is designed and textured and how each of them works. Going through the city levels in BII made me think a bit of Half-Life 2, especially in the second level when I entered into an abandoned playground. It took me so many years to actually play this game, and the little subtleties and effects which I discovered for the first time in Blood II impress me still. I just prefer Genocide skill the most.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

Tchernobog:
Blood II at least excels as a light fun shooter which utilizes much of the core dynamic that was in the original - going through creative destructible environments with a wide arsenal of satisfying weaponry and the best talkative protagonist ever to grace a video game.

BEAST:
When played on the Genocide skill, Blood II does excel as a light shooter. The enemies can pop and be torn like tissue paper sculptures filled with blood and guts. It's just that when it's played on Homicide and Suicide that it's not so fun, with my ammo being chewed up fighting those freaking Shikari. And Caleb's one-liners do work very well in the game, and I like how each weapon is designed and textured and how each of them works. Going through the city levels in BII made me think a bit of Half-Life 2, especially in the second level when I entered into an abandoned playground. It took me so many years to actually play this game, and the little subtleties and effects which I discovered for the first time in Blood II impress me still. I just prefer Genocide skill the most.
These 2 quotes are best so far, let me say why.

I really think discussions of Blood 3 are most enlightening and thought provoking when the conversation directly engages with Blood1 and Blood2, not just what they did right but, perhaps more importantly, what they did wrong as well. I know trying to improve on the original Blood is a discussion lined with pitfalls, but it's by far better than using other games as reference points to what Blood 3 'should be'.

This is not an accusation against anyone as I tend to be a consistent user of the game analogy myself. The problem we risk is the accusation of making Blood derivative of something else, not that it is possible for Blood3 to be non-derivative, no shooter can, especially a sequel. Still, If I come in and list all the things I thought were wonderful about the Kiss Psycho circus shooter I just completed, I would be opening my arguments up to the accusation that I want to rip some other game. Blood is and always has been a beneficiary of other shooters and movies, its one redeeming qualification to do so is that it makes such references feel fresh, new, or even appreciated in a new light, in a way such inferences were not done before.

I would not ask anyone to suddenly feel forbidden from saying Blood 3 should have xyz like KPC, rather It would be better if in doing so we endeavored to use it as the last reference made. In other words go into detail about xyz first, then maybe mention xyz being present in KPC, and how it made the game enjoyable.

If I sound like I've been hitting the Sterno again, please say so. :P
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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I like that you like Tcher's and mine's opinions. :D

I find these discussions more helpful, rather than discussions which tend to be too dismissive or not thorough. I've encountered some reviews on Moby Games on a few classic games, and I find it weird how other game reviewers of my generation or older tend to overuse words like "generic," or "contrived," or "overrated," or "boring," or "we've since all before" statements. "Generic" is redundant, because thousands of games have recycled stories for eons. The focus shouldn't be on the story and game being "generic," but more upon what it does differently from other games. Also, "generic" is just a lazy way to dismiss a game for its faults or shortcomings.

Like Unreal 2, for example. Gamespot did a review about Unreal 2 was generic in it's sci-fi plot, but that wasn't really the problem with the game. You can be generic, and still have a well written story, or even if the story is silly, you could still have good writing to make it work. But Unreal 2's writing made the characters sound, well, very stupid. Even the female lead of Unreal 2, who was supposed to be a genius, failed to see that the balding officer in charge of the main character was indeed the villain, even though it was obvious that he wasn't telling the truth since the beginning. And the main character makes simplistic moralizations and assessments around him, that he's a bit of dud. There are tons of things I could dissect from Unreal 2, but the jist of it is that some improvements in writing and gameplay would have made the concept work.

But let's not forget how some gamers review classic games. I've read some reviews of the classic Half-Life which accused it of being praised for things which other games deserved more, like Grim Fandango and System Shock. One accusation is that Half-Life's story is a recycling of Doom, is contrived, and is not a story at all. True, it doesn't have a detailed narrative like GF or SS, but that's missing the point. The story is told through the dialogue of the NPCs and of the enemies, the environment, the behavior of the enemies, and the level design. Plus, it did it without ever resorting to cutscenes. SS has more narrative, thanks to the emails and logs your character finds and receives, but it has a sci-fi horror story which took inspiration from cyberpunk and sci-fi entertainment like Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, The Lawnmower Man, 2001, and bits of pulp sci-fi horror. Does SS fail because it's story points could be seen as generic? No. It works, because of the narrative in which it is told. While it breaks in the cutscenes in order to set up the story, the game is consistently set from the player's point of view, and the emails, logs, and the villain's interactions with the hero make the story work. GF is a send-up of old Humphrey Bogart films combined with Glengarry Glen Ross in a Mexican Day of the Dead setting, and it works because of the design of the environments, the writing, the gameplay scenarios, and the characters. It's not called generic, because its use of cinematic and literary inspirations are original and well done. Even if it has more narrative than Half-Life, it has its odd difficulties in gameplay and has its share of plot-holes.

Half-Life 2's story has been criticized as being bad as well, while I see it more as a better done implementation of the story Blood 2 tried to do (and I think it's gameplay pulled off what Redneck Rampage Rides Again also wanted to do). And my problem is usually directed at some of dialogue from characters Eli, Alyx, Judith, and Dr. Breen, who sometimes say the stupidest things about the situation at hand or about the main character without the player having any say in the matter. But then I realized, that the dialogue I saw as being limited and stupid sounding may be deliberately done to leave room for a broader context which has yet to be fulfilled. According the Marc Laidlaw, his approach to writing Half-Life's dialogue and story is that while this kind of writing has been seen in books and films, simple scenes of human interaction full of emotion haven't been pulled off in games, even from the player's point of view. So while I think the characters in HL2 are rather simplistic in their motivations or views (except for Barney and Dr. Kleiner, because I love the hell out of them, and they're supposed to be simple in their own way), I have to keep in mind that decades occurred after the first Half-Life, and that there is more of a wider context going on that the characters take for granted but the hero doesn't know. This is proven by the G-Man's awesome scenes, and by Eli Vance's eerie and unexpected revelation in Episode 2.

The point I'm trying to make is that none of these games are better than the other just because of one game's story not being generic, contrived, or absent. The stories in each game works, because of how they are approached individually.

For Blood 3's story, I think we should look at both games of the past and present to see which storytelling approaches are the best fit for Blood's universe, or are most effective in conveying Caleb's point of view.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

The rudimentary beginnings of an outline I stuck to the wall of my cell with bits of paper. They took away my crayons earlier.

Blood3 on a stick

1. Caleb is undead.

Yes, you could reach that conclusion early in B2, but it was not obvious, at least not within the flow of the game. Another case of b2 leaning too heavily on it’s predecessor. This is cutscene material to say the least, i.e.,

Game opens to a scene of a distant distant trench coated figure hunched menacingly over a blood covered bodice stretched out between stacked boxes, ravenously chowing down on some gory item. Sounds of slurping, gorging, and satisfied cooing emerge between gulps, echoing through the darkened wear-house as the camera draws closer. Clutching greedily at the disgusting prize, the figure stops and turns suddenly to face the camera. The blood spattered man straightens himself out, brushing self consciously at a tattered sodden coat as if he’d been caught stealing a news paper from digging through a neighbor’s trash. His face, still dripping with sirup-y gore, is nearly skeletal but changing as the viewer watches, becoming fleshed out, younger, angular and sinewy. The rejuvenated man places a broad brimmed hat on his head and...

*First person view engages, viewer realizes that his view is now that of the trench coated figure.*


Or something along those lines. Caleb emerging from a grave a morgue drawer, assembling from a pile of scattered bones, all these could work.

2. The other Chosen.

It’s easier to leave them out really, but for all of B2‘s worts, it has created expectations regarding the Chosen. Caleb sacrificed them (all of them?) to get a shot at Tcherno in Blood. They also depend on him for their very existence, as Caleb can wish them dead and back to life again at will. p*** him off and he may leave someone dead (or alive) depending on which is seen as worse. Needless to say, this is a great tension creator. Sounds like mini-cut scene/ in game cut scene material. Should the other chosen be playable? Only if they have their own maps. Otherwise they are supporting cast, useful as bots perhaps but really for cut scenes/ story progression.

3. Technology

Blood was a software rendered game and the one thing (only thing) software rendering does reliably well is supply the end user with high frame rates. This is critical regardless of system player happens to be using. So 60 fps should be something the end user can reliably expect even on a low end systems (ancient p4/ 2gigs ram/512 gig graphics card) in all in-game situations, given the proper degree of graphics tweaking of course.

In blood 2‘s era, games were seen as vehicles for selling engines. I can’t stress this enough, that cannot be the situation for b3. The choice is not mine to make obviously, but it really comes down to 2 possibilities- develop the game to impress hardware manufacturers ($financing$) or develop it to re-energize an aging franchise. Some smart ass might say “let’s do both!" but as far as my limited understanding is concerned, one choice usually comes at the expense of the other.

The average Blood lover isn’t a teenager anymore and probably doesn’t own a rig specifically for gaming, so end users will be low-end-graphics tolerant, at least compared to the high end demo. Graphics should approach ‘modern' expectations but only at a minimally accepted level, i.e., using the most broadly generous definition of whatever ‘modern graphics’ means. A tweaked (even I like bloom) source engine or comparable would be perfect. $0.02 deposited.

4. Game-play

Separate post on this one.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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I am little overwhelmed by the amount of text here, as I have not been able to write down my thoughts in the form of a written reply for the past few days, and have now fallen well and truly behind in following all of this. Still, I would now like to contribute one new entirely separate point which is actually independent of what has been discussed here already.

The following link is basically what this thread is all about; a fleshed out design for a new Blood game. It also includes huge walls of text, a fair amount of hyperbole, high hopes, and a large helping of unbridled ambition. Gentleman, I present to you Adrenaline Vault's original development preview of Blood II: The Chosen!
http://web.archive.org/web/200606122206 ... eview1.asp

Read through it and learn. There is plenty to be seen and many conclusions that can be drawn.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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Tchernobog wrote:I am little overwhelmed by the amount of text here, as I have not been able to write down my thoughts in the form of a written reply for the past few days, and have now fallen well and truly behind in following all of this. Still, I would now like to contribute one new entirely separate point which is actually independent of what has been discussed here already.

The following link is basically what this thread is all about; a fleshed out design for a new Blood game. It also includes huge walls of text, a fair amount of hyperbole, high hopes, and a large helping of unbridled ambition. Gentleman, I present to you Adrenaline Vault's original development preview of Blood II: The Chosen!
http://web.archive.org/web/200606122206 ... eview1.asp

Read through it and learn. There is plenty to be seen and many conclusions that can be drawn.
Holy moly, I thought I would never find this article again! As I recall, Adrenaline Vault was the one review that really loved the Blood games. I think they did a cool review for Cryptic Passage awhile back, but I could be wrong. I remember that specific screenshot of a Shikari, which made it look like a really large Shikari boss. If only it was.

This article is perfect, Tchern. It brings me back, and reminds of how much I originally expected from Blood II. A lesson for us all.

Sorry I wrote so much text in your absence, Tchern. I got carried away, and there was lots of stuff I just wanted to talk about.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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BEAST wrote:Holy moly, I thought I would never find this article again! As I recall, Adrenaline Vault was the one review that really loved the Blood games. I think they did a cool review for Cryptic Passage awhile back, but I could be wrong.
This what you were looking for?
https://web.archive.org/web/20060213044 ... tic&page=1
BEAST wrote:Sorry I wrote so much text in your absence, Tchern. I got carried away, and there was lots of stuff I just wanted to talk about.
No need to apologize; it is just going to take me a little while to consume it all. :)
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

@Tcherno

That was a great commercial. I enjoyed it enough to have read through it all in my first sitting. So they were clinging to their big plans for Blood2 before the demo release (June 98?). Ol' Mike D. must have still been writing his lith 1.0 promises on lith 1.5 checks at the time. The per map scripting Jay really needed to deliver all that AI brilliance happens clumsily in dedit for lith 1.0. (ILA provides a sample in B2K5 during the face off with Ishy)

In 1.5, map scripting happens in a folder called MAPDATA and can be changed within note pad or even a hex editor, no compiling required. I think I'm going to give the youtube linking Willis added a shot today. Unfortunately, a bad connection means I can't see this video I'm about to post. Tell me if it contains the 3rd person flying monsters swooping scene from the game, if not I'll pull it down.

EDIT 01/19/6:55PM:
This is from the first part of Might and Magic 9 (I think). MM9 used the most advanced version of lith 1.5, it even used lith 2.0 map and model formats.

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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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Interesting, but exactly is the purpose behind showing a long gameplay video from Might and Magic 9? I checked Moby Games, and does use the LithTech engine, yet according to the date, it was released in 2002, and it looks way older than that. No One Lives Forever was released in 2000, so I'm confused as to why it looked out of date. Was this to show how LithTech's older engine still had innumerable problems, and the the creators of M&M9 had difficulty reconciling those problems as well?
EDIT 01/19/6:55PM:
This is from the first part of Might and Magic 9 (I think). MM9 used the most advanced version of lith 1.5, it even used lith 2.0 map and model formats.
It is Might and Magic 9. The video says so, and I checked Moby Games. Wow. It could of used some of the graphical improvements from NOLF 1. Well, not even NOLF 1. This was released in 2002, the same year as NOLF 2, so that's even sadder.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

BEAST
Interesting, but exactly is the purpose behind showing a long gameplay video from Might and Magic 9?


Unfortunately, it is an example of my tenancy to ramble away from the stated subject. My apologies, I'll get your thread back on track. At least we know the youtube linking works! :P


BEAST
I checked Moby Games, and does use the LithTech engine, yet according to the date, it was released in 2002, and it looks way older than that. No One Lives Forever was released in 2000, so I'm confused as to why it looked out of date. Was this to show how LithTech's older engine still had innumerable problems, and the the creators of M&M9 had difficulty reconciling those problems as well?
I think the low end graphics has something to do with 3DO's budget and the game genre. Developement of MM9 started in 2001 I think, with he dev's short on cash for engine licensing. Lith 1.5 was Lithtech's budget engine, and by 2001 it isn't even enumerated by the game devs. that use it, in fact Valusoft games simply call it "Lithtech" with no number. I wish I could see the video, I have seen a few MM9 models and they are terribly low poly, even though they use the same model format as NOLF, i.e. ABC version 12. My guess is the genre of role playing games MM9 belongs to requires a huge number of models to be on screen at any given moment. Also, MM9 was another title chained to an awful development time limitation. I need to research the postmortem for MM9 before I speculate further, but I think that lith 1.5 wasn't as buggy as 1.0, not by a long shot.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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Unfortunately, it is an example of my tenancy to ramble away from the stated subject. My apologies, I'll get your thread back on track. At least we know the youtube linking works! :P
Don't apologize for rambling. As I demonstrated in my last few posts, I have a tendency to ramble away as well. I sense that the development of Might and Magic 9 showcases how difficult the old LithTech engine was to get right, even by the best of developers.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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N0t_mINe wrote:2. The other Chosen.

It’s easier to leave them out really, but for all of B2‘s worts, it has created expectations regarding the Chosen. Caleb sacrificed them (all of them?) to get a shot at Tcherno in Blood. They also depend on him for their very existence, as Caleb can wish them dead and back to life again at will. p*** him off and he may leave someone dead (or alive) depending on which is seen as worse. Needless to say, this is a great tension creator. Sounds like mini-cut scene/ in game cut scene material. Should the other chosen be playable? Only if they have their own maps. Otherwise they are supporting cast, useful as bots perhaps but really for cut scenes/ story progression.
I would very much like to have the Chosen get their own, separate campaigns in a theoretical Blood 3. I thought all three characters were just as entertaining as Caleb and while there wasn't much in Blood 2, they had an interesting dynamic with one another. Instances where they have to fight each other should be viewed from the perspective of the Chosen you are currently playing as.

Regarding Caleb sacrificing them for his own power to fight Tcherno, I feel that is incorrect. When he consumed Gabriel/Gabriella's heart in the Lair of Shial, I believe he felt remorse for what he had to do. Ophelia's cremation was probably the most difficult thing Caleb had to do and no one should have to see their beloved pinned to a bloody stone slab either. Ishmael's soul was probably absorbed by Cerberus when it burned/ate him in the Hall of the Epiphany so, since Ishmael's body was gone, he blew up Cerberus' corpse and absorbed the spiritual energy from it's blood. Considering that the Blood 2 story manual seems to imply (to me at least) that Caleb hates isolation and loneliness, I think he'd treat Ophelia/Gabby/Ish a little better than the common, expendable civilian. I honestly think Caleb loves Ophelia despite being a cruel murderer and he probably has various forms of respect and comradely for Gabby and Ish too. But since Caleb is Caleb, he probably wouldn't show it and just toss a bunch of one-liners and insults to compensate! :P

Also, remember that Caleb has felt how terrible betrayal is. I don't think he would view the other Chosen as just playthings for his own gain because if that was the case, he'd be no better than Tchernobog. Caleb's a pretty bad dude but he's not Tchernobog bad (even though as of Blood 1, he official is the next incarnation.) Alot of people like Blood because Caleb is a blatantly evil guy but I feel Blood's story is less about evil and more about two sides with different drives. Caleb represents freedom with him turning against the world that betrayed him, seeking to take back what was once his. While the Cabal/Cabalco only care about complete and total dominion over all life in the name of Tchernobog. They feel the world would be better off with an absolute ruler and they put their total faith in him. The clashing of both Caleb and Gideon's personalities in B2 reflect this IMO.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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You're right, dosgamer000. Caleb may like disemboweling his enemies in hundreds of ways, and has no qualms about doing the same to civilians for their life essence (if you want to be THAT bad), but he doesn't regard The Chosen with the same contempt as he does the Cabal. Even though I found the cutscenes to be rather like very crude horror-based Wallace and Gromit shorts, the emotion conveyed through Caleb's actions and words in those cutscenes were very striking to me. I still find the cutscene where Caleb lays Ophelia's body on the altar, stroking her hair one last time, and then ceremonially burning her to be uncharacteristically moving for a BUILD FPS. The scene where Caleb drinks from Gabriel's heart is also uncharacteristic, because he speaks to Gabriel's webbed body with the respect a soldier would give to his comrade. I was very surprised when I heard Caleb say "Forgive me, old friend..." before ripping Grabriel's heart out with his bare hands. Lo Wang and Duke Nukem dealt with similar losses (for Wang his master, for Duke all of human women) but they never have scenes with brief moments of genuine emotion in cutscene like Caleb has. Scenes where he regards his fallen comrades one last time made me think of the Richard Sharpe series, where Sharpe paid his respects to his riflemen who fell too soon. Myth: The Fallen Lords and Myth II: Soulblighter deal with the theme of losing valuable soldiers against the forces of darkness (I actually think that some of Bungie's earlier titles, the RTSs and FPSs, could be of influence to the Blood series).

If you want to find ways to make Caleb more ambiguous and shady in his actions, study Legacy of Kane: Blood Omen 2. He develops a relationship with a vampire called Umah, who represents a vampire resistance movement called the Cabal (hm... some writers are rather fond of the Cabal as a name. Even the Whig party in England used to be called The Cabal). Even though Umah is freaking hot, Kane regards her with disdain and disinterest. After she betrays him, for the reason that she thinks he would be worse than the Sarafan, the villains of the game, she gets severely wounded and he kills her while at the same time revealing that he would have liked her to be his queen and rule Nosgoth with him. He speaks like dick still, but it turned out he did have some attraction to her, but he then justifies killing her by thinking that she was a Sarafan agent all along. Despite the Sarafan Lord denying honestly that Umah was his agent, Kane still clung to his excuse that she was a traitor and her death was justified. From reading Ophelia's description in the B2 site, I kind of expected that she probably would betray Caleb due to her mixed feelings of being revived. The stories in the Legacy of Kane saga do fit rather nicely with Blood's story.

At some point, I need to submit some of my Blood art I did awhile ago. They deal a little with some of the ideas I've discussed about a Blood 3 and of Blood 2
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

dosgamer000:
I would very much like to have the Chosen get their own, separate campaigns in a theoretical Blood 3. I thought all three characters were just as entertaining as Caleb and while there wasn't much in Blood 2, they had an interesting dynamic with one another.
I was a little dismissive about the Chosen in my post, trying to make the point that a Blood title could function without them (it could). They still play an important role though as they keep Caleb from being a one dimensional character, I get that. Having their own separate campaigns would be awesome, the best possible use of them by far if it didn't put too many demands on the devs. The only issue I see with that is it might water down the rest of the title. Most retail games don't exceed 30 maps and any hypothetical dev. team that formed to create a Blood3 would certainly have a similar limitation. The game's overall structure would look something like the nightmare levels, say with 7-10 maps per campaign. Personally I like the Blood2 format better, with all it's faults, it was really just a matter of practicality to the story line and the dev's time limitations. The nightmare format was a good one btw, It's harder to implement and extremely difficult to make the game pace flow. Transitioning from one character to the next can be a little jarring, especially if player was just starting to really like/ get use to the character he/ she was playing as.

dosgamer000:
Regarding Caleb sacrificing them for his own power to fight Tcherno, I feel that is incorrect. When he consumed Gabriel/Gabriella's heart in the Lair of Shial, I believe he felt remorse for what he had to do.
And later...
Also, remember that Caleb has felt how terrible betrayal is. I don't think he would view the other Chosen as just playthings for his own gain because if that was the case, he'd be no better than Tchernobog.
Remorse? Yes, you can't have much drama in that scene with Caleb acting callously, he's been thoroughly callous and flippant throughout the game already. Gabriel, on the other hand, was still alive, or at least looked to be alive. Caleb could have brought him in on the revenge. For Caleb, revenge was more important than friendship, as real as that friendship appeared to have been. Remember the goal of the B1 narrative is to convince player that Caleb wants revenge against the one who betrayed him (them) above all else. You have 5 cut scenes to do that in, each one is less than a minute in length (give or take).
Caleb using the spiritual energy of his beloved friends and combat comrades right along side those of enemy cultists drives that vengeance point home in a big way. Blood2 has little in the way in convincing melodrama, and the game suffers as a result.

dosgamer000
I think he'd treat Ophelia/Gabby/Ish a little better than the common, expendable civilian. I honestly think Caleb loves Ophelia despite being a cruel murderer and he probably has various forms of respect and comradely for Gabby and Ish too. But since Caleb is Caleb, he probably wouldn't show it and just toss a bunch of one-liners and insults to compensate!


The interrelationships between the Chosen are complex to say the least. There is a lot of metaphysical codependency going on there, with Caleb having the power of Tchernobog but little actual knowledge as to how to use it.

Ophelia has a fierce ambition to take over the Cabal despite being too weak to do so. She reminds Caleb of powerful pleasures and devastating pains past. She uses the profound emotions they both share to manipulate him, even though Ophelia herself is not immune from the deep power of happier days with Caleb long ago. Ophelia is most likely to foment anger against Caleb, She's also the most likely to get away with it. Needing the other Chosen to accomplish her goals makes Ophelia the go between of them all communication wise and if the general makes a mistake or shows weakness, she makes damn sure the others know about it. She gauges each of the other three, always looking for a useful change of mood or a way to get them to see her help-me-dominate-the-world-and-I'll-cut-you-in point of view.

Ishy has a lot of know how and is jealous of Caleb's achievements, seeing their leader as inferior to himself makes him more than a little arrogant. He would screw over Caleb and the others in a cold second if he got real power- something all the Chosen realize about this sneaky Necromancer. His knowledge about the magical world means he's always looking for a way to defeat or even harness Tchernobog's power within Caleb. Needless to say Caleb has to keep a close eye on Ishmael, draining him of life the second he says something suspicious .
Ishy stays in close contact with Ophelia, as both see freedom from Caleb's unlife as the only way to gain control of the Cabal. The up side for Ishmael is the same intelligence that makes him dangerous, his ability to obtain information on the doings of the Cabal or even the other Chosen, keep Ishy uncomfortably indispensable to the the general. If Caleb respects anyone it would be Ishmael, if he fears any other member of the Chosen, it would be the same.

Gabby likes to blow things up, can actually challenge Caleb in this regard, and is something like what Caleb would be if he'd never fallen in love with Ophelia- cruelty tempered with nothing. This doesn't paint a pretty picture and Caleb might keep Gabby around just as a reminder that he's not the worst undead sadist in the world. When push comes to shove however, the extra power Gab brings to a fire fight after the general's p*** off the wrong demon is undeniably useful. Caleb probably works best with Gabby when they do cooperate, their outlooks and techniques being so similar, they are clearly soul mates, although Caleb would never admit to this. Easy to anger and more bitter than the other Chosen about being sacrificed, Gabby is quick to join the other Chosen when they rebel against Caleb. Being as stubborn (and tough) as Caleb means he's usually the last to surrender too.

And that's my take on our dysfunctional, undead version of the Brady bunch. They need each other to survive, don't trust each other at all, and hate Tchernobog's betrayal so much that they'll drop their differences in a second to fight him. I know some of what I've written doesn't line up exactly with what's been written about the chosen, but some of what has been written officially about them doesn't correspond to itself.

BEAST:

At some point, I need to submit some of my Blood art I did awhile ago. They deal a little with some of the ideas I've discussed about a Blood 3 and of Blood 2.

Just some?!? Why not release it all! 8)
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

dosgamer000:
I would very much like to have the Chosen get their own, separate campaigns in a theoretical Blood 3. I thought all three characters were just as entertaining as Caleb and while there wasn't much in Blood 2, they had an interesting dynamic with one another.
I was a little dismissive about the Chosen in my post, trying to make the point that a Blood title could function without them (it could). They still play an important role though as they keep Caleb from being a one dimensional character, I get that. Having their own separate campaigns would be awesome, the best possible use of them by far if it didn't put too many demands on the devs. The only issue I see with that is it might water down the rest of the title. Most retail games don't exceed 30 maps and any hypothetical dev. team that formed to create a Blood3 would certainly have a similar limitation. The game's overall structure would look something like the nightmare levels, say with 7-10 maps per campaign. Personally I like the Blood2 format better, with all it's faults, it was really just a matter of practicality to the story line and the dev's time limitations. The nightmare format was a good one btw, It's harder to implement and extremely difficult to make the game pace flow. Transitioning from one character to the next can be a little jarring, especially if player was just starting to really like/ get use to the character he/ she was playing as.

dosgamer000:
Regarding Caleb sacrificing them for his own power to fight Tcherno, I feel that is incorrect. When he consumed Gabriel/Gabriella's heart in the Lair of Shial, I believe he felt remorse for what he had to do.
And later...
Also, remember that Caleb has felt how terrible betrayal is. I don't think he would view the other Chosen as just playthings for his own gain because if that was the case, he'd be no better than Tchernobog.
Remorse? Yes, you can't have much drama in that scene with Caleb acting callously, he's been thoroughly callous and flippant throughout the game already. Gabriel, on the other hand, was still alive, or at least looked to be alive. Caleb could have brought him in on the revenge. For Caleb, revenge was more important than friendship, as real as that friendship appeared to have been. Remember the goal of the B1 narrative is to convince player that Caleb wants revenge against the one who betrayed him (them) above all else. You have 5 cut scenes to do that in, each one is less than a minute in length (give or take).
Caleb using the spiritual energy of his beloved friends and combat comrades right along side those of enemy cultists drives that vengeance point home in a big way. Blood2 has little in the way in convincing melodrama, and the game suffers as a result.

dosgamer000
I think he'd treat Ophelia/Gabby/Ish a little better than the common, expendable civilian. I honestly think Caleb loves Ophelia despite being a cruel murderer and he probably has various forms of respect and comradely for Gabby and Ish too. But since Caleb is Caleb, he probably wouldn't show it and just toss a bunch of one-liners and insults to compensate!


The interrelationships between the Chosen are complex to say the least. There is a lot of metaphysical codependency going on there, with Caleb having the power of Tchernobog but little actual knowledge as to how to use it.

Ophelia has a fierce ambition to take over the Cabal despite being too weak to do so. She reminds Caleb of powerful pleasures and devastating pains past. She uses the profound emotions they both share to manipulate him, even though Ophelia herself is not immune from the deep power of happier days with Caleb long ago. Ophelia is most likely to foment anger against Caleb, She's also the most likely to get away with it. Needing the other Chosen to accomplish her goals makes Ophelia the go between of them all communication wise and if the general makes a mistake or shows weakness, she makes damn sure the others know about it. She gauges each of the other three, always looking for a useful change of mood or a way to get them to see her help-me-dominate-the-world-and-I'll-cut-you-in point of view.

Ishy has a lot of know how and is jealous of Caleb's achievements, seeing their leader as inferior to himself makes him more than a little arrogant. He would screw over Caleb and the others in a cold second if he got real power- something all the Chosen realize about this sneaky Necromancer. His knowledge about the magical world means he's always looking for a way to defeat or even harness Tchernobog's power within Caleb. Needless to say Caleb has to keep a close eye on Ishmael, draining him of life the second he says something suspicious .
Ishy stays in close contact with Ophelia, as both see freedom from Caleb's unlife as the only way to gain control of the Cabal. The up side for Ishmael is the same intelligence that makes him dangerous, his ability to obtain information on the doings of the Cabal or even the other Chosen, keep Ishy uncomfortably indispensable to the the general. If Caleb respects anyone it would be Ishmael, if he fears any other member of the Chosen, it would be the same.

Gabby likes to blow things up, can actually challenge Caleb in this regard, and is something like what Caleb would be if he'd never fallen in love with Ophelia- cruelty tempered with nothing. This doesn't paint a pretty picture and Caleb might keep Gabby around just as a reminder that he's not the worst undead sadist in the world. When push comes to shove however, the extra power Gab brings to a fire fight after the general's p*** off the wrong demon is undeniably useful. Caleb probably works best with Gabby when they do cooperate, their outlooks and techniques being so similar, they are clearly soul mates, although Caleb would never admit to this. Easy to anger and more bitter than the other Chosen about being sacrificed, Gabby is quick to join the other Chosen when they rebel against Caleb. Being as stubborn (and tough) as Caleb means he's usually the last to surrender too.

And that's my take on our dysfunctional, undead version of the Brady bunch. They need each other to survive, don't trust each other at all, and hate Tchernobog's betrayal so much that they'll drop their differences in a second to fight him. I know some of what I've written doesn't line up exactly with what's been written about the chosen, but some of what has been written officially about them doesn't correspond to itself.

BEAST:
At some point, I need to submit some of my Blood art I did awhile ago. They deal a little with some of the ideas I've discussed about a Blood 3 and of Blood 2.
Just some?!? Why not release it all! 8)
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