Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Discuss and hash out the Blood universe here.

Moderator: General Discussion Moderators

User avatar
BEAST
Zealot
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 05:59 am

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST »

It's been awhile since I've discussed ideas and influences for a BLOOD 3. I was very happy to see that this thread was included as a link source for the Blood wiki article on BLOOD 3 (Thanks, whoever you are :) ), and I was pleased overall by the responses I got on how to approach a BLOOD 3.

Primarily, I kind of envision BLOOD 3 as being a reboot of BLOOD 1 like DOOM 3 was supposed to be for DOOM 1. What I feel about DOOM 3 is another story, but like DNF, it serves as a template for what and what not to do in a reboot of BLOOD 1. The graphics, animations, and eerie atmosphere of DOOM 3 is what made it intriguing, but id was not able to take these elements to their full potential in D3 in my opinion. With the right kind of technology, or programming, BLOOD 3 could ascend to the level of unpredictable and eerie horror which D3 could not attain. Accompanied by Caleb's usual off-the-wall personality, of course. :wink:

Considering the advances in the FPS field with games like the BIOSHOCK series, there are tons of enhancements BLOOD 3 could benefit from. I have this image in my mind of Caleb on a rowing boat in the Arctic with a sailor companion, and taking a dive in the water only to find an open-jawed Gillbeast rising from the deep toward him. Caleb jumps back into the boat, the beast circles the boat ominously underneath, and the sailor says: "I'm sorry this boat is not bigger. You'll be unable to dive down there to your destination, what with Tchernobog's Gillbeasts infesting these frozen cold waters. I don't think that there Gillbeast is alone." :shock: So there should be sequences similar to that. If the Arctic portion of BLOOD 1 is recreated for BLOOD 3, I think surrounding water should be miles deep, and have schools of Gillbeasts wandering aimlessly on the bottom, occasionally coming up in small packs for Caleb.

I do wonder what could be done for the boss fights. Again, I think of how DOOM 3 reinterpreted the Cyberdemon and the Barons of Hell, as well as offering its own handful of new bosess, and I wonder how BLOOD 3 could do better. If you want the first five original bosses from BLOOD 1 to return, that's fine, but what new bosses would you like to see in BLOOD 3? Anyone got a boss idea they want to see in a BLOOD sequel? Back to redoing the original bosses, how do you envision Tchernobog or Cheogh in a BLOOD 3?
User avatar
Tchernobog
Tchernobog's Love Child
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 07:30 am
Location: Rural Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog »

What I would kind of like to see is a gameplay convention that would play on something which has been hinted at a lot in fan fiction, which is the weight of Caleb's age on his mental well-being. I can just imagine a game mode where the player has to revisit all of these environments reminiscent of past areas in the previous games due to Caleb's increasingly fragile mind, sort of like Daniel's flashbacks in Amnesia only a lot more solid and expansive. Although, since Caleb is obviously a lot more on the ball than Daniel at the best of times, there would have to be a definite real world trigger to explain these lapses from reason.

I know that is not directly responding to any of your point's BEAST, but I thought I might as well throw that out there. :)
User avatar
BEAST
Zealot
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 05:59 am

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST »

Recently played Clive Barker's Undying. Damn, that's still an awesome game. Took a lot of the best elements of other games, and amplified them. Clive Barker's writing also makes the game compelling. What I would really like is have a Blood game which starts off in the Old West, and is written and designed in a similar vein as Undying. For a later part of my ideal Blood 3, I'd want Caleb to enter into a dimension which resembles the old Texan region he was from, but inhabit it the world with zombies, hellhounds, and some indescribable monstrosities as the towns people and domesticated pets, and make it akin to Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath meets Outlaws.

I need to write this out as a design document at some point.
User avatar
N0t_mINe
Acolyte
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 05:35 am
Location: LURKERS DON'T DRAMA.

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

BEAST wrote:Recently played Clive Barker's Undying. Damn, that's still an awesome game.
Mmm, muscle -bound parrots for the base enemy, not a good sign. I made it all the way to the fight with the first ghostboss; lots of annoying memories of being pelted with rocks. The prospect of carrying her head around didn't keep me in the game though. Scry hints, in-game conversations, reading through found texts, none of these things made the storyline interesting. I also remember being kept in a completely desperate state with never enough health or ammo. The experience was rarely enjoyable, despite lushly gothic environments. One of the clearest cases of reward failure I can think of.


What I would really like is have a Blood game which starts off in the Old West, and is written and designed in a similar vein as Undying. For a later part of my ideal Blood 3, I'd want Caleb to enter into a dimension which resembles the old Texan region he was from, but inhabit it the world with zombies, hellhounds, and some indescribable monstrosities as the towns people and domesticated pets, and make it akin to Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath meets Outlaws.
The prequel idea isn't a bad one, but be careful not to get bagged down in storyline mania though. True, blood had slightly more story elements than quake or doom, but the Blood we played and were captivated by was a stripped down version of what was originally envisioned. Gameplay and carefully crafted environments, subtle but ubiquitous ambiance, these are key. Scrub your mind of all the visuals and thrills had while playing E1M4, just try to remember how many sounds you experienced assuring that you were actually at a carnival. Very few games see that degree of polish.
User avatar
Tchernobog
Tchernobog's Love Child
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 07:30 am
Location: Rural Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog »

Good to see you again BEAST. 8)
N0t_mINe wrote:Gameplay and carefully crafted environments, subtle but ubiquitous ambiance, these are key. Scrub your mind of all the visuals and thrills had while playing E1M4, just try to remember how many sounds you experienced assuring that you were actually at a carnival. Very few games see that degree of polish.
Very well put. Blood was always very good at providing story through exploration, rather than explanation. :)

As for Undying, I might actually need to get around to trying it out and seeing what it is like at some point through WINE one of these days. Like so many other games I should really play for archaeological reasons but have not done due to my increasingly modern native Linux gaming backlog. Curse you industry growth! :P
User avatar
dosgamer000
Acolyte
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 07:57 pm
Location: Boggy Creek

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by dosgamer000 »

@Tchernobog: I agree that we should get a better insight into Caleb's mentality. He has lived for well over 100 years, wandering the planet totally alone, watching the Cabal slowly rebuild themselves and take over society. His main drive in Blood 1 was vengence against Tchernobog for Ophelia and the Chosen's betrayal and deaths. If Tchernobog hadn't been so obsessed with power, Caleb would have gladly lived out his immortal years in servitude; Ophelia happily by his side. Being a former outlaw, cultist life probably gave him everything he could imagined along with a woman that I think loved him. Losing all that no doubt had put him over the edge ("Everybody dies!" for example.)

Blood 3 could greatly benefit by including the Alter of Stone and other withered and ancient places once explored in Blood 1. For Blood 2 stuff, a tour through the burnt and destroyed Cabalco building could bring back some memories. :)

@BEAST: You mentioned how the bosses should look like plus asked for ideas on new ones. How bout this? :D
• Choegh with new lightning powers (he's ruler of the skies so it fits that he has airborne electric powers.)
• Shial with the power of massive web spinning to slow you down and a bunch of poison spit moves.
• Cerberus gains some surface magma attacks like erupting geysers of fire/lava and can hide in lava pools in his arena.
• The beasts are incarnated as an important storyline cabal antagonist that can shift at will. Give him/her a moon association.
• Tchernobog revived with a crapload of stuff like blue flames, red lightning, black holes, and a zombie breath that makes dead corpses reanimate. Has multiple forms and the final form is so gigantic/challenging that all four Chosen must work together to stop it.
• New boss monsters for gill beast, plant, and zombie lines + maybe Caleb goes to Egypt to fight mummies or gets in an underwater fight with Nessie? :P

@N0t_mINe: I searched lots of "weird west" stuff online the day before yesterday and alot of what I saw looked very fitting in Blood's universe. If a prequel is made in that time, keep in mind that technology would be a tad more advanced than in real life (steampunky lightning guns and automatic weapons etc.) due to the Cabal's existence. Not to mention zombies roaming deserted mining towns and the like. :guns:

Sorry if I speak more of Blood 3 as a B2 sequel than a Blood one reboot. I hope it is on topic.
User avatar
N0t_mINe
Acolyte
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 05:35 am
Location: LURKERS DON'T DRAMA.

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

dosgamer000:
Sorry if I speak more of Blood 3 as a B2 sequel than a Blood one reboot. I hope it is on topic.
One of the greatest strengths of the b2 story line is its amazing ability to be so thoroughly bypassed. It's kinda hard to incorporate into a blood3 discussion because b2 makes so few demands on the original Blood. It really should be seen as borrowing and extending blood's universe, often with nothing more than comical intent (nightmares), rather than a continuation of the original Blood.


Let's see, there was a human leader for the cabal after Tcherno bought it, oh, and by the way, he hates Caleb. And then there was a time /space redo everything gun that brought back Caleb's buddies, and... and there was a tentacle thing coming out of a rift the time/space gun caused and... and... The only blood element that wouldn't feel out of place in blood2 is monkey wrestling.

Gabriel(la) is a chick. Ophelia has a British accent this time around. It's all so bubble gum wrapper-insert-y that You can ignore most of it safely. If someone made a sequel to The good, the bad, and the ugly starring Robin Williams as the Asperger's syndrome suffering great, great grandson of the man with no name, out to stop the re emergence of bell-bottomed jeans in the late 80's, would anyone pay attention?

As for the weird west thing, It's pretty much the way you'd have to go with a prequel-ish Blood3. Blood was used by a wiki article at one point as a sample of something 'weird west', although I'm not sure how good an exemplar of that genre Blood could be considered.
User avatar
Tchernobog
Tchernobog's Love Child
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 07:30 am
Location: Rural Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog »

N0t_mINe:
Granted I like Blood II far more than most, but I personally would be very upset to see all of Blood II be ignored; a lot of the storyline back-story provided by Blood II is simply invaluable when it comes to building up a larger cannon, for instance. Go through this time line and try and pick and choose the bits that were from either the original Blood or Blood II and then decide whether it could all be jettisoned:
http://www.blood-wiki.org/index.php/Fiction_Time_Line

I also feel that people over emphasis the gothic in Blood when what was really strong about it - the protagonist, the gun-play, the destructible and malleable environments, the sense of humour, and the epic scale of the whole production - are just as present in Blood II, at least as far as its haggard development would allow. There is a reason I am a fan of Blood and not Hexen, and it is to the series credit that it can have such strong core elements that they can be transplanted from a stylized gothic past into a dark urban future with the level of success that the games did achieve.

That being said, I do agree with your general premise that Blood II itself really is distinct from the original and, as you put it, "should be seen as borrowing and extending blood's universe ... rather than a continuation of the original Blood." I would also agree that at this point whether it be a reboot or a sequel the game should focus more on the series roots, as that is where the most new ground can be tread, or where the tale most certainly has to begin.
User avatar
N0t_mINe
Acolyte
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 05:35 am
Location: LURKERS DON'T DRAMA.

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

Tchernobog wrote:N0t_mINe:
Granted I like Blood II far more than most, but I personally would be very upset to see all of Blood II be ignored; a lot of the storyline back-story provided by Blood II is simply invaluable when it comes to building up a larger cannon, for instance. Go through this time line and try and pick and choose the bits that were from either the original Blood or Blood II and then decide whether it could all be jettisoned:
http://www.blood-wiki.org/index.php/Fiction_Time_Line
Of couse, If Blood 3 occurs in the future than there is no reason to abandon Blood 2. Most of what is useful in B2 comes from its readme file anyway, not to mention the the Blood2 guide. Ophelia should never have had a British accent, now that she has one however, she wouldn't sound right without it. Forgetting about blood 2 is a luxury that can only be indulged with a prequel and even with that, there are bits and pieces of b2 that would be useful. There is no good reason to ignore b2's 'fleshing out' of the b2 universe, it's just something a pack o' developers working on a would get away with cleanly if they did so is all I'm saying.
Tchernobog wrote:I also feel that people over emphasis the gothic in Blood when what was really strong about it - the protagonist, the gun-play, the destructible and malleable environments, the sense of humour, and the epic scale of the whole production - are just as present in Blood II, at least as far as its haggard development would allow. There is a reason I am a fan of Blood and not Hexen, and it is to the series credit that it can have such strong core elements that they can be transplanted from a stylized gothic past into a dark urban future with the level of success that the games did achieve.
One of the problems in Blood2 was the loss of that Saturdaynight-horror-tv-special feel that Blood radiates with. I agree that it is rarely "gothic" in it's implementation, at least in the sense one uses late 19th century ghost stories as a reference to what gothic means. Macabre might be a better term.
User avatar
BEAST
Zealot
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 05:59 am

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST »

Most of what is useful in B2 comes from its readme file anyway
And from the website. It had the potential to be a really cool game, and I still like what was done in the retail game. I do think the story in B2 would have come out better in the gameplay if Monolith had opted for the Jedi Knight, Kingpin, or Half-Life approach to gameplay and level design. But then, Half-Life was a major factor in the rushing of Blood 2's and SHOGO's development.
Ophelia should never have had a British accent, now that she has one however, she wouldn't sound right without it.
You're right. When I got around to playing Blood 2, I was confused as to why she did have a British accent. I was more confused as to why, a century after her death, she welcomes Caleb with silly sexual innuendo. I would think that their meeting after many years would be somewhat mixed and intense. But back on point, I imagined her to have a Texan or Midwestern mountain accent. A woman who sounds like she belongs in the world of Jeremiah Johnson or McCabe & Mrs. Miller. There are a few John Wayne films which featured some extremely crazy Western accented women who I think would nicely with Ophelia. When one looks at those few sentences in Blood 1's story in the manual, about her blaming her husband for leaving the Cabal rather than blame the Cabal itself for her husband's and (most of all) her son's death, you know that you've got the beginnings of a really complex and messed up character. Just add the being defiled and crucified by stone gargoyle for no reason, then having her body hanged for years and then burnt to ashes, and then finally brought back to life again into the deep future only to meet an undead old boyfriend who eats peoples hearts and has made her another intended target of the Cabal.... That could explain why the B2 site's summary of Ophelia suggested that she's grown to despise Caleb despite their lethal attraction for another.
There is no good reason to ignore b2's 'fleshing out' of the b2 universe, it's just something a pack o' developers working on a would get away with cleanly if they did so is all I'm saying.
I don't think that B2's story should be ignored. As a cockeyed optimist that I am, I still like to think that B2 deserves to be remade and having a sequel to it. I still like the idea of B2 being remade by the Transfusion (even if it is not likely to happen) in the Dark Places or Q3 engine like they planned. I'm still a bit of acolyte for B2R, but that's another story. Back in the early 2000s, when I heard that B2 was flawed never got to play it (and new only from the Planet Blood walkthrough), I was brainstorming a remake of B2 in Unreal 2 engine (which I also never played, but saw the review and screenshots for it). When I revisited games like Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith, I was playing around with the idea of doing a B2-styled mod using JK's design as a template. Note, that I have no experience as a modder whatsoever, and can't program at all. I can only dream elaborate game concepts, and imagine how the game would look and feel.

Which reminds of something back from way, way back. When I was a young fat elementary schooler, and I was playing Blood's shareware for awhile but never the full game (or B2), I was conceiving of a Blood 3 that would serve as a sequel to B2. It would still be set in the future, but it would be set mainly in locales which still haven't progressed too much, in parts of Texas and the Midwest. The plot was that Caleb and Ophelia were wandering together on some long journey on their own, while Ishmael and Gabriel would keep their hold of the Cabal whilst they were away. Ophelia was to wear a gunslinger's hat and trench coat like Caleb, for some reason. While wandering through small towns, cheap motels, trailer parks, and the remains of old Western towns, both both Caleb and Ophelia are attacked randomly by packs of new enemies. I designed some of them in miniature modeling clay form back then, but I destroyed them. They consisted of a hunchback albino zombie in overalls hold a huge pick ax, a typical white blanket ghost with bleeding guts inside, a poltergeist fused with robotic technology, conventional red demons (I think), and traditional robed cultists. I think I had the idea that they would make their way into a huge city scape like Blade Runner or Akira, and that they would go against Cultists trained like Special Ops assassins or SWAT teams. The Cultists in the city would've dressed up like GI Joe futurist soldiers, and most of them would have been lurking on super high scaffoldings and rooftops waiting to take you out from a distance. I don't where the plot was supposed to go, but looking back, I think I might have some idea. The monsters and cultists who attacked Caleb and Ophelia were the result of something from Tchernobog's dimension was opening portals into the very regions where the 16th Incarnation of Tchernobog lurked and schemed, and the onslaught of Cultists who are antagonistic to Caleb are the result of either a rival cult to the Cabal, or the Cabal being taken away from Caleb by someone he was close to. Perhaps something could be made of this, I'm not sure.

The idea of Blood 3 being set between B1 and 2 came around high school and early college, and the idea was for Caleb to globe-hop to ancient places in Europe, Asia, and North America to unhinge the plans of the Cabal some more, to learn the secrets of the Cabal's past, and probably even find a way to control Tchernobog's divine essence within him. It was to have Caleb encountering his alter ego from a far off time, a Crusader who was as also a Chosen of the Cabal. also betrayed, and also undead. He too was intended by Tchernobog to fight the Cabal, and become a powerful sacrifice for Tchernobog to use, but the Crusader never went through with it for some reason. I wanted the climax to take in Jerusalem, or at least a shadow dimension of Jerusalem full of all the warped souls of all the killers and victims of the Crusades.

I could give a little inkling of how the gameplay would have been like. A rapid and ferocious monster is mauling Caleb in dark abandoned old fashioned wood house, and Caleb shuts the door on him in a shed. Caleb waits for the monster to attack the door, but the monster is silent. He's not gone, he's just... waiting. Caleb slowly wraps his wounded hand with bandages he found in the shack. He hears other noises and he loads his shotgun. What he thinks is the creature who attacked him at the door tries to break through the window. He opens the door and backs out to fight it, but the monster who was outside is still there. The idea was to have the monsters be very resourceful and patient with how they tried to take you out. But there are ways to outsmart them. You could mimic a female/male monster (depending on their sex and preference) before they saw you, and they would go through the door with a horny dance, and then Caleb with them from behind and say "You're all alike! You're just monsters! Better to break my heart before breaking mine! Heh heh..." Another trick: in a library, Caleb could pick out any book, and read them dramatically. He could be reading Lovecraft, Shakespeare, Edgar Allen Poe, or Gone with the Wind, and all the monsters lurking would come up and sit in front of him while he read. If you were thinking ahead, remote detonators would all be laid where the monsters would intend to sit, and after you finish your dramatic reading, they all clap, and then Caleb detonates the detonators before the monsters realize that Caleb was the prey they were looking for.

I intended Caleb to fight demonic bears in the wild midwestern mountains, use a Ninja sword while visiting Japan's Cabal branch cult, and even used a medieval crusader's sword while fighting against hordes of crusader zombies. A lot of ideas were going about then.
User avatar
Tchernobog
Tchernobog's Love Child
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 07:30 am
Location: Rural Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog »

You are a hell of a person to brainstorm with BEAST. :shock:

:wink:
User avatar
N0t_mINe
Acolyte
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 05:35 am
Location: LURKERS DON'T DRAMA.

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe »

BEAST wrote: ... It had the potential to be a really cool game, and I still like what was done in the retail game. I do think the story in B2 would have come out better in the gameplay if Monolith had opted for the Jedi Knight, Kingpin, or Half-Life approach to gameplay and level design. But then, Half-Life was a major factor in the rushing of Blood 2's and SHOGO's development.
That 'plain to see' potential is what frustrates so many of us regarding B2. If only b2 was released in late November instead of early October, if only the Lith 1.5 patch had been released for B2/shogo as promised instead of being developed into a different game. Blood2 is to shooter history what the fall of France was to WW2, Everything that had been predicted to happen to that point was suddenly wrong. Everything that wasn't supposed to happen- did. I can't speak to JK as I'm largely unfamiliar with that saga. As for Kingpin, it dealt more or less with the character adapting to the world he found himself in as far as I can understand it. I'm not sure the mini-mission scenario would work with our favorite undead psychopath. Caleb's best when he makes it all about himself.

Halflife is an easy thing to reach for when trying to implement a storyline into a shooter. For Blood that format would be a little problematic as HL requires a certain degree of helplessness to be enforced within the narrative. Things are happening to Freeman and his world- he has no say in it even if he gets blamed.

At some level player is expected to have faith in Caleb's overt badassness. He's modeled after spaghetti western protagonists, The Crow, and Ash after all. Our villains are only powerful enough to make the path to the general's victory an interesting and on rare occasions, something uncertain, but in the end we're more interested to see how Caleb gets there than whether or not he does.

Beast:
You're right. When I got around to playing Blood 2, I was confused as to why she did have a British accent. I was more confused as to why, a century after her death, she welcomes Caleb with silly sexual innuendo. I would think that their meeting after many years would be somewhat mixed and intense.
We tend to idealize the past. Remember that back in Caleb's time Brothels were legal in many locations. Also of note, in the mid to late 19th century U.S. just about everyone was from somewhere else, so while it feels a little unusual to hear a particular accent in a certain location at a certain time, it is by no means impossible. Hollywood has deeply colored our impressions of history.


Which reminds of something back from way, way back. When I was a young fat elementary schooler, and I was playing Blood's shareware for awhile but never the full game (or B2), I was conceiving of a Blood 3 that would serve as a sequel to B2. It would still be set in the future, but it would be set mainly in locales which still haven't progressed too much, in parts of Texas and the Midwest. The plot was that Caleb and Ophelia were wandering together on some long journey on their own, ...

... midwestern mountains, use a Ninja sword while visiting Japan's Cabal branch cult, and even used a medieval crusader's sword while fighting against hordes of crusader zombies. A lot of ideas were going about then.
Don't be offended that I cut you short here. That's a lot of material in the above. Some of those ideas are ones we've all thought about in one way or another. Trying to have all those ideas take shape in a single paragraph isn't fair though, you should put meat on those bones if you'll pardon me for saying so. Those are some pretty intense imaginings you've got going and someone in your state of creative 'power- conceptualizing' needs to sit down and write a Blood fan fic. Many might say that to you in a derogatory vein but I am quite serious, ask Tcherno, who had to plow through my last ode' to grammatical retardation nearly 3 years ago.

Fan fictioning for Blood is incredibly cathartic, it forces you to make all the ideas in your mind's eye either gel of face pruning. I'd much rather face demonic bears or viscera containing ghosts in the context of a new narrative before trying them out on the game world floor. Dinner with the Preacher started out on planetBlood as an exercise to prove Reactor's claim about Caleb always being evil, wrong. I wound up proving him right instead. :D
User avatar
dosgamer000
Acolyte
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 07:57 pm
Location: Boggy Creek

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by dosgamer000 »

Tchernobog wrote:You are a hell of a person to brainstorm with BEAST. :shock:

:wink:
All that brainstorming reminded me of that time when I recorded myself talking about ideas and concepts for Blood 3, and I ran out all the recording space on the cam-corder (an hour's worth.) Rambling about undead cowboys and evil cults can be addicting, believe me! :wink:

@N0t_mINe: I agree, fanfic writing is quite the rewarding experience (especially for a series like Blood where there is plenty of room to add your own "flair".) I started alot of fanfics but finished so little of them and I can say, despite being the amatuer writer that I am, the last one I finished felt great; as if I did the game and it's universe justice. Making a sacrifice of blood, sweat, and tears to the fan-fic Gods, you could say.
User avatar
BEAST
Zealot
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 05:59 am

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST »

Tchernobog wrote:You are a hell of a person to brainstorm with BEAST. :shock:

:wink:
You don't know how happy you made me when you posted this. Granted, some words were missing in my brainstorming, and there were some typos, but yeah. There's a lot that I've had going in my mind over the years. :wink:
I can't speak to JK as I'm largely unfamiliar with that saga.
What made JK great for me, N0t_mINe, was that it took Dark Forces, and made it more cinematic, more Star Wars-y, made the levels enormous and guaranteed to give you vertigo, added some RPG and exploratory elements, damn it all gave it cool boss fights with variety. It did for Dark Forces what Half-Life 2 did for HL1, in my opinion. It was darker, and (for the time) its graphics were something. I still like the art house polygon look to the game, even though a majority of other gamers just can't stand it. The main character was a hero of unclear morality (Han Solo type) who is the only Star Wars character to blast every single lifeform in the universe with an arsenal of demolishing weapons, and he was paid a lot of money by the Rebellion to destroy secret Imperial projects. JK changed the formula of Dark Forces by making the story personal for the character, and had him discover his capabilities as a Jedi warrior through organized crime dens and his Tusken infested home, and then kicking butt all over with his newfound lightsaber.

The reason why I like JK is because of its level design (particularly in Nar Shadda, which feels like something out of Blade Runner), the narrative told through the levels and the cutscenes, the weapons, the variety of enemies, the gameplay, and the boss fights. It's a bit fanboyish of me, but I want to use JK as a template for how I would do B2. Namely, to have massive levels reminiscent of Blade Runner/The Crow/The Matrix/Tim Burton's Batman, populate them will all kinds of NPCs, have recognizable locales like bars and apartments to visit, have cinematic cutscenes, and have variety of boss fights with their personality and unique boss lair.

That's just my opinion. I've appreciating the game again over the years.
As for Kingpin, it dealt more or less with the character adapting to the world he found himself in as far as I can understand it. I'm not sure the mini-mission scenario would work with our favorite undead psychopath. Caleb's best when he makes it all about himself.
Being like Kingpin doesn't mean Caleb has to help other people. Adapting to the world he's just found himself in would be perfect for Caleb. Of course Caleb is a self-serving undead psycho, but at least we could give him prey which is more deserving of his bloodletting sadism. Remember how many messed up and sick people were in Kingpin? Remember that the Female Cultist in the B2 concept art looked kind of alleyway thuggish? How about having Caleb let loose on drug addicts, thieves, rapists, muggers, street gangs for health while he's fighting off modern hitmen Cultists? That would be an interesting aspect to integrate...
Halflife is an easy thing to reach for when trying to implement a storyline into a shooter. For Blood that format would be a little problematic as HL requires a certain degree of helplessness to be enforced within the narrative. Things are happening to Freeman and his world- he has no say in it even if he gets blamed.

At some level player is expected to have faith in Caleb's overt badassness. He's modeled after spaghetti western protagonists, The Crow, and Ash after all. Our villains are only powerful enough to make the path to the general's victory an interesting and on rare occasions, something uncertain, but in the end we're more interested to see how Caleb gets there than whether or not he does.
I'm not saying that B2 should function just like Half-Life's narrative. I'm just talking about core aspects which made Half-Life 1 unique: skeletal animation and talking mouths, cooperative and clever AI, scripted sequences, interactive NPCs and environments, a consistently cinematic experience straight from the hero's point of view without shifting to cutscenes. Caleb doesn't have to be helpless in order to benefit from a Half-Life approach. On the contrary, those core gameplay aspects would be used to enhance what is already great with Blood. Just keep Caleb's character and all the effects from Blood, but add scripted sequences, talking mouths, and interaction through dialogue all without cutscenes. I'm sure that some of individuals out there who wanted to do a Blood-Half-Life 1 mod imagined that such a fusion could be like that.
We tend to idealize the past. Remember that back in Caleb's time Brothels were legal in many locations. Also of note, in the mid to late 19th century U.S. just about everyone was from somewhere else, so while it feels a little unusual to hear a particular accent in a certain location at a certain time, it is by no means impossible. Hollywood has deeply colored our impressions of history.
Oh, I didn't say that because I was idealizing the past. Of course Ophelia and Caleb should trade some sexual euphemisms with each other in B2. It's just that this was the first time Ophelia and Caleb saw each other in years, and that last time Ophelia saw him, she was abducted by a stone gargoyle. It was suggested in the B2 site that she probably harbored resentment towards him for resurrecting her, but none of that is seen in the game. He's not too surprised to see her alive again, and she's not too surprised to see him alive either, and they act like she was resurrected just a little bit before the game, and that Caleb had been hanging out with her for awhile. The exchange felt like something out of Evil Dead... Which may be appropriate, if the characters had been properly developed before they meet again. I myself have a thing for Ophelia... But that's another story! But as I said, I don't mind them talking dirty. I just wanted some proper character development before the exchange. I do find a little humorous. I also liked that Caleb echoed a little of his outrage from The Way of All Flesh when Gideon took Ophelia away from him. Again, some development was needed.
Don't be offended that I cut you short here. That's a lot of material in the above. Some of those ideas are ones we've all thought about in one way or another. Trying to have all those ideas take shape in a single paragraph isn't fair though, you should put meat on those bones if you'll pardon me for saying so. Those are some pretty intense imaginings you've got going and someone in your state of creative 'power- conceptualizing' needs to sit down and write a Blood fan fic
I'm not offended at all. Thanks! I just took your suggestion and decided to write some a fanfictional summary for how I would design B2. I imagined how the cutscenes would be like, what the levels would be like, and what would go on in the levels. I was astonished how I made B2 sound more like the kind of game I wanted in 98 through writing it out.
Fan fictioning for Blood is incredibly cathartic, it forces you to make all the ideas in your mind's eye either gel of face pruning
Oh, it can be. It would allow me to exercise a lot of game ideas off my mind, as well as help me in how I want to write my original fiction. I have so much original creativity next to my fan creativity, that I have trouble getting myself properly organized. This may prove to be a good hobby. :)
User avatar
Tchernobog
Tchernobog's Love Child
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 07:30 am
Location: Rural Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog »

BEAST wrote:I just wanted some proper character development before the exchange. I do find a little humorous. I also liked that Caleb echoed a little of his outrage from The Way of All Flesh when Gideon took Ophelia away from him. Again, some development was needed.
The epitaph "some development was needed" is always going to weigh down on Blood II's reputation. GT simply forced the game out too early - lots of story ideas suffered in the same way as this.
BEAST wrote:IThe reason why I like JK is because of its level design (particularly in Nar Shadda, which feels like something out of Blade Runner), the narrative told through the levels and the cutscenes, the weapons, the variety of enemies, the gameplay, and the boss fights.
I too have a soft spot for JK, and I recently played through it again over the summer as my main machine was down and I was stuck on an old Dell D600 laptop. I certainly find it better than JK II, which I played for the first time last June following the source code release, which was amusing but did lack the depth and detail of the original.

That being said, sometimes JK can be a bit too heavy for its own good, bogging down due to the weight of its own ideas. Blood II at least excels as a light fun shooter which utilizes much of the core dynamic that was in the original - going through creative destructible environments with a wide arsenal of satisfying weaponry and the best talkative protagonist ever to grace a video game.

I would not want any of that to be lost or constrained in order to shoehorn in more narrative, although providing us with more story elements need not necessarily result in this problem.
Post Reply