About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Again?"

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Manhs
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About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Again?"

Postby Manhs » Mon Jun 06, 2016 08:04 am

I'm not sure the point of the post, but i think he wants see if there is a lot of people who want still the game... :)
http://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php ... Live-Again

Show yourself, show yourself !
Time to live again! and to spread the word! :)

What do you think about it ? :phantasm:

Link of his facebook page if you want post a comment to support it, in case ;)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Gila » Mon Jun 06, 2016 06:33 pm

jace hall seems to have this knack once in a few years, to ponder on reviving or remaking Blood or doing something with it.
but every time it comes down to - interest is not enough, and it will cost alot of money. so now this spark took a form of crowdfunding or kickstarter.

in my opinion, games, gamers, and whole industry changed a lot in these 20 years. it's even more about making money now than 'in those days'. it was great back then, but i doubt it's going to be great in modern day. what "worked" in 1996 might not go well as of now - look at Duke Nukem Forever. though some 'revives' or remakes or reboots or whatever they are called can be good - Shadow Warrior 2013 is a great example, but something is just a bit off, you don't want to replay it all the time. but most of the times the remakes or reboots suck.

to me, Painkiller is sort of partly a spiritual successor to Blood. partly.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby VGames » Mon Jun 06, 2016 07:33 pm

New Doom? SP campaign is highly praised. Replay value is said to be high also. Finally gonna play it today but I'm sure it's gonna blow me away. It can be done properly. Here's the secret, don't change much. Simply add a few things that would have made the original better. That's why Doom is being praised and also scorned. Nothing huge was changed and nothing broke new ground. But nobody can say it's not fun to play. I'll know for sure today but I'm usually right about what I purchase. We wanted a new Doom that brought back what made Doom Doom. I'm pretty sure we got it. Blood can also have this.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby VGames » Tue Jun 07, 2016 05:29 am

Ok played about 4 maps in and Doom is the best FPS I've ever played. Pure skill is needed. Adrenaline at its best. Never gets old. Constant survival without any slow down. It's Doom at it's best!
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Tchernobog » Wed Jun 08, 2016 06:11 am

First off: those are my words being quoted by Jason Hall. They are from my GamingOnLinux article from last summer:
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/ ... cle_page=3

Secondly, since Painkiller was brought up, and the new Doom game obviously took a lot of cues from it, I feel that I just have to express my growing distaste for the modern swarm shooter, or at the very least the bastardized notion that these games are in any way more retro than the likes of Call of Duty. Both focus heavily on simplified mechanics that come nowhere near the amount of gameplay depth found in the likes of the original Doom or Blood. Yes, in both of those titles you were expected to be able to handle several dozens enemies at once at certain points, but they did not just force you down one linear path of segregated arenas where monsters haphazardly appear after the door slams shut behind you.

What made both Blood and the original Doom great was its complex level design and intelligent monster and item placements. There was a deliberate cadence in both of those games that is lacking from these brain dead swarm shooters that prioritize just clicking the mouse cursor repeatedly as if it were a quick time event. You had to be the master of your environment and explore the world around you if you were going to succeed, something which Painkiller's empty courtyards with consistently blocked access simply do not allow for. The level of action was also never constant in both the original Doom or Blood, which was to the game's benefit, as it contributed to that all important cadence that allowed for slower more atmospheric moments as well as all out frantic action. Such things need to be staged, not forced down your throat by an over enthusiastic game designer with no sense of proportion.

Frankly, I blame Doom II for generating a lot of this misconception, as in its attempt to try and one up the original Doom it often went roughshod over its own fundamentals, creating an ultimately uneven game that gave us many forced moments such as all those times you were expected to face an almost incalculable amount of enemies simply because they give you an invulnerability power up or some other cheap way of dealing with the problem after the fact. If a shooting game relies on just the mere act of shooting for its core mechanic then it is doing something wrong. You need to balance it first. If you want a crash course in how to make a retro shooter that actually plays like it should, just play through Knee Deep in the Dead again and take a gander at John Romero's design rules to discover how he made one of the best single player episodes of any shooter bar Blood.

Retro shooters were about so much more. How can we forget that?
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Gila » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:41 am

yeah Painkiller is what it is. or was what it was. that being said i really liked the original 2004 game. the add-on they made for it (Battle Out of Hell) was a bit weak and had so many missed opportunities.

then literally the franchise went all over the place with some total conversion called Overdose, then something called Redemption, or something, and another one which was Resurrection? one of these had huge levels, and one of them had really small levels with insaaaaaaane amount of respawning enemies, as if someone took deathmatch levels and just tweaked them for single player. bleh.

what can also be said about the "old" shooters (pre-2000s) is that most of enemies had projectile attacks really. all these SWAT/COD/Soldier/War shooters have mostly hitscan weapon wielding enemies, how can you dodge that... running around, luring, dodging fireballs/knives/whatever was a special thing back then as well.

unfortunately didnt play the new 2016 DOOM cuz i aint got the video card for it and i dont really want to upgrade. oh yeah, also apparently not enough RAM as well.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Manhs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 01:16 pm

The new DOOM 2016 is very good but i miss the real classic level design, i mean, it's bit mazed and it's cool yes, but like the old one where you can be always surprised because it uses waves when you rip off the eyes things of the demon statue of the maps....You know what will happen, there can be some enemies here and here between 2 waves but it's really not like i have played in the past....but still a very good game/DOOM :)
I would want see a classic dm style in the mp, because there is 2 problems who bore a lot of players, apparently:
You can't choose your server, it's done automatically (no i have no idea if i play in a french or italian server, by exemple.
No weapon to grab on the maps..you have some starter kit with 2 weaps and 1 grenades, at least there is some items in the maps, but i would like a mod with the classic dm style, even in Quake live, you can get some weapons in the maps.... Maybe in the future... :)
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Tchernobog » Wed Jun 08, 2016 05:50 pm

I am okay with a certain amount of hitscan enemies, because damage mitigation can be just as much of a skill as strafing and dodging. When you know you are going to get hurt it often takes a certain amount of lateral thinking to figure out how to best get past an enemy, which when paired with a creative and satisfying arsenal such as the one you have in Blood can help generate some of the game's more fiendish moments.

That being said, I do agree that an over reliance on them is a bane of the modern industry. It goes back to what I was saying about most modern shooters having simplified mechanics. Doom and Blood had a variety of different enemy types with a variety of different attacks that you had to learn and master if you were going to succeed. They also had a variety of ways of restoring health that also made the whole thing a lot deeper than standing in a quiet corner and sucking your thumb, something which takes away a lot of the point of damage mitigation in the first place.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Manhs » Thu Jun 09, 2016 07:22 am

I was thinking that, at least, you are forced to fight the enemies without be hide in a corner as always' but it depends of the mapping and a lot of things yes :)

Do someone know how much sales did BLOOD ? I know it doesnt mean something, but, people say BLOOD is unknown for a lot or underrated, i noticed there is a lot of fans or people who like the game, even in France (with the comments in some website), so i was curious how much could do some game like BLOOD ! I searched for some others fps (like Hexen/Heretic serie), but i found nothing.

Anyway, i suppose, if there was some expansions, it was sold well, right? :guns:
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Gila » Thu Jun 09, 2016 09:12 am

hitscan stuff

yeah I agree. I remember playing B2 and i was in that airship level and was going to enter the final area with couple of enemies on the top ledges and i think zealot was there or something. it was horrible, i was almost full HP with full armor, and the moment i was showing my face around the corner i was dead in a second. the difficulty skill settings balance in B2 is just... i don't know what it is. on easy you gib enemies from a pistol shot, and on hard (and medium as well) you just get blown in 1 second by 3 hitscan enemies who just instantly shoot at you right between the eyes.

Do someone know how much sales did BLOOD ? ...
Anyway, i suppose, if there was some expansions, it was sold well, right?

since they were also making a sequel later, i suppose it was successful a bit. Blood came out what, may-june 1997? it was one of the four most known and successful games that used "Build" engine, which were Duke3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood and Redneck Rampage. I think each of these had it's "niche", Duke3D was the 'first' and most well known. for me personally, Blood was the game I played the most at that time, something just felt right in it's physics and motion, the game had its own rhythm or something.

but consider general audience gaming, i think they were put off by its look, along with the drab color palette and just the style of the game. not to mention that quake (which also had very distinct depressing look with mostly green and brown colors) was all over the place at that time.

what i mean is B1 certainly did not explode in the gaming world, but i guess it was moderately successful.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Tchernobog » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:53 am

I would also say that the amount of people who know and own Blood has increased over the past few years with the digital releases and the word of mouth it has achieved as a kind of underground classic. It was at its lowest ebb when it was just considered to be strange abandonware, I think.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby I Live...AGAIN » Fri Jun 10, 2016 01:46 pm

Hall annoys me at this point.....

He appears every year or two with his nonsense because no one cares about him anymore and he wants to feel important.

He posts these half-assed forum posts from time to time in the most obscure places asking the same question and avoiding any questions about anything. What I get from this post is that he is not interested in getting the source code released (which is all most people really want) as much as he is acquiring the IP. This would be fine except that he wants us to buy it for him without any REAL CLEAR EXPLANATION about how much it would cost or who actually owns it.

Most people who ask for money for projects need to have a solid business plan in order or they will be laughed out of the room. They need to spell out exactly what they need the money for and exactly what it will be spent on. Hall doesn't have any plan at all. He bounces all over the place talking nonsense and never answers questions. He talks to the public like we are retarded. Does he really think Bloodbath could be an Esport??? in 2016? Come on! I'm not stupid.

Sorry to be soo cynical but Ive heard this song and dance before. Maybe if he actually explained clearly what happened to the source rights and the IP without dancing around not actually saying anything about it I might trust him a bit.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Gila » Fri Jun 10, 2016 04:38 pm

yeah i've noticed this weird trend as well, you know, the "oldschool" developers appear kind of suddenly and say something like "hey remember us? we made (name of the game) in (whatever year) and remember how it was super awesome and modern games suck? well, we want to make super awesome game again! give us the money and we might cook something up" and it's attached to some crowdfunding thing or kickstarter. the last one that i've seen do this was john romero with adrian carmack saying hey we gona make this shooter called Blacklight, super awesome all around, here's the donation website. well at least they paused the fund collection and decided to put out a demo first.

it's kind of sad that these oldschool devs that were held in super high regard do this in the modern days really, but what can you do, everything changes. and furthermore, even if these devs do get to make a project, it will never have same feeling again like that first time.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby dosgamer000 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 05:55 am

Something that I noticed with old game revivals is that alot of them pander towards the fanbase but often there is either 1. barely a fanbase until news of an old title generated interest again (shadow warrior which owed much of it's popularity to duke 3d) or 2. there is a large fanbase but opinions are so split on what makes the game good and also over-protectiveness/intolerance towards anything "new" and not "classic." A good example is the pot stirring Brutal Doom caused in the Doom community. One portion of fans hailed it as the best Doom mod ever and it's gory violence as what Doom has always been about while the other portion disliked it for giving off a "fake" idea of what Doom is. Doom 4 has gory executions which I think are inspired by Brutal Doom so in the very least, the devs were aware of it's influence.

Now the problem with reviving an old game is that you cannot please everyone and attempting to do so is foolish. Some people will complain regardless and still find fault in the game. If a new Blood was made I personally feel it should play like the first game but have the dynamics of the four Chosen within the storyline. I love Caleb and I would not mind playing a game solely with him, but I also like his supporting cast from Blood 2 flawed as it was. Even if you get past the concept of how you want your reboot/remake to revive the series, there is the problem with money and whether or not people will buy your game. Blood is not really one of these games but I know a few titles I adore but have barely a fanbase and were generally panned by mainstream gaming. The diehard loyalists would easily spend money on their revived series but if it cannot make a whole lot of money, no developer would waste their time on it.

Games only exist for money and no amount of artistic themes or great gameplay is worth it if it's not marketable. I have seen games market themselves towards a profitable group of players and even then they make barely a profit due to just being outright an underwhelming game. A good balance must be struck between substance and marketability. We know that Blood's fans want a new Blood game and the problems facing the series are complicated involving company BS and of course money problems. Doom 4, Rise of the Triad, and Shadow Warrior are all older games given a new chance to be successful again and I feel it won't be too long until something happens that Blood can comeback...even if it may not actually share the Blood name.
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Re: About BLOOD with Jace Hall: "Blood - Should It Live Agai

Postby Gila » Sun Jun 12, 2016 02:07 pm

If a new Blood was made I personally feel it should play like the first game but have the dynamics of the four Chosen within the storyline. I love Caleb and I would not mind playing a game solely with him, but I also like his supporting cast from Blood 2 flawed as it was.


nice idea, considering that originally blood II had this ambition, that you play through the game with different characters you would get at least different dialogue, which idea they ditched completely of course.

regardless, i don't like b2 versions of them pretty much because they were made into dumb stereotypes. ophelia is sort of british, gabriella is whatever it is, i duno, african? jamaican? ishmael i don't even know. if only they would tweak them not to be SO corny.

also partly problem of b2 is that it was made in that weird era where everything moved to full 3d with gfx acceleration but somehow it was ok to include stupid s*** in the game, you look back on b2 and it's completely dated. b1 however is kinda timeless.

however, they could learn from borderlands, at least that's how it should be done mechanically, different hero with different playstyle (talent/skill tree) and special ability.

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