Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

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BEAST
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Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:30 pm

Years ago, when I was a mere “Guest,” I once posted under the guest name THE BEAST on what I would like to see BLOOD 3 like. Because I was pretty inexperienced back then, I posted what I wanted in two posts instead of one, and made a particularly dumb comment about wanting to see BLOOD 2 remade in UNREAL 2 (I finally managed to play the game, and sadly, it really does suck). I am also embarrassed by all the typos I made, and how awkward my grammar and sentence structure was (I still have those faults, but I'm mostly coherent now). Mainly, I thought that BLOOD 3 would either be made using the DOOM 3 or BIOSHOCK engine. A friend of mine and I had some pretty cool ideas about the AI behavior of the enemies, and how we would want to portray Caleb (I'd have to elaborate on that for latter post) I am kind of proud of the idea of an undead predecessor to Caleb, a Crusader once in the service of the Cabal, who would act as sort of an advisor to Caleb during the progression of the game (similar to the character Caligastro in SPAWN). Nowadays, it seems that the best engines now include DEUS EX 3's engine, BIOSHOCK INFINITY's engine, the IdTech5 engine, and probably the Lith Tech 3.0. The BLOOD community could throw in thousands of ideas, and still may not agree on what the look, feel, and gameplay of the proposed sequel would be like.

(To the many users here whose eyes were singed by my numerous typographical errors and confusing writing style, I am deeply, deeply sorry. I am very embarrassed by how rushed a number of my early stuff was.)

I'm still hoping that DustyStyx's concept for a BLOOD prequel where Caleb combats a cultist Civil War officer will be worked on by the TRANSFUSION team after TRANSFUSION is finished. Once work on TRANSFUSION's version of the DP engine is completed and perfected, that would be a project I would look very much forward to.

Presently, I'm wondering how a BLOOD 3 could be pulled off in time and age. I've compiled a list of games, stories, and comic books which could influence the sequel. A most games take on aspects of BLOOD which I think must be integrated into the sequel; some are just here, because they are the best examples of technology and gameplay leaps in the FPS genre.

HALF-LIFE
UNREAL
(These games pushed the limit of technology in 1997-1998, plus they both have elements which haven't always been taken advantage of in later games. HALF-LIFE has intelligent squad AI, and UNREAL has relentless and quick thinking AI. Also, the cool level design, graphic effects, and boss fights. How can you not include these as influences?)

OUTLAWS
(The classic LucasArts Western that I haven't played yet. Could influence the Western flashbacks of Caleb).

Clive Barker's UNDYING
(This game in my mind is one of the best horror games ever made. It channels the concepts of Poe and Lovecraft so well, and the atmosphere is awesome. The swashbuckler aspect I think has something in common with BLOOD. This level of sophistication and atmosphere could be useful for the sequel)

POSTAL 2: SHARE THE PAIN and APOCALYPSE WEEKEND
(Definitely in the vein of BLOOD: the merciless killing of civilians (if you choose so), the heart as an indicator of health (ala BLOOD 2), and the ultra-dark satire. Whenever I bump into the town's inhabitants, they grimace at me in a manner that's freakishly grotesque. There's always the feeling that something sinister lurks underneath the seemingly wholesome community,)


ODDWORLD: STRANGER'S WRATH
(How can it influence BLOOD 3? Well, the aspect of Western cities inhabited by the oddest of creatures, and the clever stealth gameplay, weapons, and dupable enemy AI. )

KINGPIN
(For the Neo-1920s feel, the organized crime aspect, and the ability to recruit potential allies)

SYSTEM SHOCK 2
(PC GAMER claimed that this game was scarier than THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT and funner than HALF-LIFE. It's not scary to my brother, who's since gone on to newer games. Still, the gameplay and its atmosphere is still is unnerving and effective. It would be interesting to have Caleb's bloody humor juxtaposed against the subtle and quiet terror of SS2's horrific style).

CLOCKTOWER
RESIDENT EVIL
SILENT HILL
THE SUFFERING
(These were all listed in the top 10 scariest games. Influences from these games should be considered.)

ETERNAL DARKNESS
(For the heavy Lovecraftian influence, and the video game's unpredictable behavior).

DOOM 3
(For its graphic effect, primarily).

LEGACY OF KAIN:
BLOOD OMEN
SOUL REAVER 1 & 2
(The stories of these games are like retail adaptions of the works John Milton, Edmund Spencer, William Shakespeare, and maybe a bit of Lord Byron, compounded into an awesome work of epic gothic fantasy. Both BLOOD OMEN and SOUL REAVER have a similar story to BLOOD 1. With BLOOD OMEN'S similarity to BLOOD 1: man is betrayed and killed, man is resurrected into a menacing form by an evil being, and has a thirst for blood. With SOUL REAVER, it's: servant of someone akin to a deity is betrayed and killed by his master, is resurrected and enacts vengeance upon all of his master's other monstrous servants. The epic story, the writing, and the twists-within-twists plot must be used as an influence).

THE CROW
SPAWN
(Elements from each could serve BLOOD 3's story and character).

BIOSHOCK
(Perhaps for the enemy behavior).

QUAKE 1
RISE OF THE TRIAD
(QUAKE for the medieval and ancient mood for some of the locales and for the puzzle based boss fights, and RISE OF THE TRIAD for the cultists, the level scenery, and some of the boss fights)

THE RATS IN THE WALLS
HERBERT WEST-- REANIMATOR
THE TERRIBLE OLD MAN

(These stories of Lovecraft's I suspect are closer to the tone of BLOOD than the author's other stories (such as the Lord Dunsany inspired stories and those in the Cthulu mythos. I think the Captain in THE TERRIBLE OLD MAN reminds me of Caleb when he preys upon his intruders with disturbing eyes).

NANOBREAKER
(Tons of oozing blood. Sucks according to the Top 10 Bloodiest games, but its blood amounts could be influencial)

DEUS EX
(Consequential RPG elements).


BLOOD 3 should retain the art style from the first game, only more enhanced and amplified. It should utilize the best which which the latest LithTech technology has to offer, but really go crazy with the size and diversity of the levels. It should be bloodier, scarier, and most important of all, it should have lots and lots of dark humor. Provided, of course, it should have a serious and well-written writing underlying the humor, but it must be a disturbingly funny game. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER, GIANTS: CITIZEN KABUTO, and SACRIFICE are the best examples of games with serious, underlying plots, but are hilarious nonetheless. We must have a funny serious game again!

The set-up for the boss fights for the first BLOOD should be retained, except that the bosses themselves should be uglier, and more unique than just slightly larger versions of a gargoyle, spider, or hell hound.

Ending my point, here's some videos. The first three by Gametrailers claim which games are the scariest, the bloodiest, and the funniest. (For the bloodiest, they don't even choose BLOOD 1! Curse them!) The last videos are montages of cutscenes from GIANTS: CITIZEN KABUTO, NOLF 1, and SACRIFICE, demonstrating each their employment of humor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63P6vpRwTf4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhXAbU6_b1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp6UnMGu9ZY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAW1pLhH ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kMmB9DGIQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-w7TdrfO90
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by Tchernobog » Mon Jan 23, 2012 02:20 am

You know what I think would be a good inspiration if ever there was a new Blood game? Duke Nukem Forever. :o

By looking at DNF, I mean looking at what it did wrong and what it should have been. Just look at DNF's faults and take the solutions as a check list.

Like any successor to a Build game, many of the environments should be entertainingly interactive. DNF had simple quicktime events taking the place of real interaction. You should have the freedom to do what you want, rather than what the game designer scripted for you. The objects that are provided are just set dressing, it is up to you to make the play as it were. Think of the fun you had in the Dark Carnival level from the original Blood, for instance.

They should also be vast and creative. Duke Nukem Forever had only about four real settings, and had you slog through all of them for way to long. Looking back to Duke3D as well as Blood and Blood II, what they did well was incorporate one cool idea for a setting into each level. Referring back to Blood's first episode, the Train level is probably the most iconic here. And they should be long and complex, beating off the modern trend of linearity that you hear Yahtzee complain about all the time.

And yes, add some proper water puzzles. The ones in DNF do not count, as they suffered from much of the same scripted linearity as the rest of the game. We want ones like we had in the final episodes of Blood. It is sad that the water trope has sadly died out in so many modern games.

You get those right, and you have a damn decent game already. And we do need a game like this, to revive proper old school shooters for the gamers of today. That is why so many were willing to give DNF the benefit of the doubt right up until the end, as they really wanted someone to make a game like this. Sadly, DNF failed to deliver on this point.

Looking over your list, I am glad to see Postal 2 and especially Apocalypse Weekend show up. AW especially gave me a very good Build engine vibe, and both show how you can accomplish much of what I was saying on a more modern engine. AW also had the right weapons and balance to make the gunplay (or machete play!) extremely satisfying, in a similar vain to what Blood II managed to accomplish. There is also the Eternal Damnation mod for Postal 2 which was very Blood like and was even somewhat inspired by it. It had a wide weapon variety (mostly nicked from the AWP mod, but still), vast and creative locales, and even some of the dark city vibe from the earlier levels of Blood II.

By the way, slightly off topic, but if you want to play some more heavily Lovecraftian games, I can not recommend Frictional Games' titles strongly enough. They are not really action focused, so not as pertinent when it comes to making a Blood game, but are great horror games in their own right. Just thought I would give them a shout out while I was here.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe » Fri Jan 27, 2012 01:13 am

BEAST said:
Presently, I'm wondering how a BLOOD 3 could be pulled off in time and age. I've compiled a list of games, stories, and comic books which could influence the sequel. A most games take on aspects of BLOOD which I think must be integrated into the sequel; some are just here, because they are the best examples of technology and gameplay leaps in the FPS genre.

HALF-LIFE
UNREAL
(These games pushed the limit of technology in 1997-1998, plus they both have elements which haven't always been taken advantage of in later games. HALF-LIFE has intelligent squad AI, and UNREAL has relentless and quick thinking AI. Also, the cool level design, graphic effects, and boss fights. How can you not include these as influences?)

OUTLAWS
(The classic LucasArts Western that I haven't played yet. Could influence the Western flashbacks of Caleb).

Clive Barker's UNDYING
(This game in my mind is one of the best horror games ever made. It channels the concepts of Poe and Lovecraft so well, and the atmosphere is awesome. The swashbuckler aspect I think has something in common with BLOOD. This level of sophistication and atmosphere could be useful for the sequel)

POSTAL 2: SHARE THE PAIN and APOCALYPSE WEEKEND
(Definitely in the vein of BLOOD: the merciless killing of civilians (if you choose so), the heart as an indicator of health (ala BLOOD 2), and the ultra-dark satire. Whenever I bump into the town's inhabitants, they grimace at me in a manner that's freakishly grotesque. There's always the feeling that something sinister lurks underneath the seemingly wholesome community,)


ODDWORLD: STRANGER'S WRATH
(How can it influence BLOOD 3? Well, the aspect of Western cities inhabited by the oddest of creatures, and the clever stealth gameplay, weapons, and dupable enemy AI. )

KINGPIN
(For the Neo-1920s feel, the organized crime aspect, and the ability to recruit potential allies)

SYSTEM SHOCK 2
(PC GAMER claimed that this game was scarier than THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT and funner than HALF-LIFE. It's not scary to my brother, who's since gone on to newer games. Still, the gameplay and its atmosphere is still is unnerving and effective. It would be interesting to have Caleb's bloody humor juxtaposed against the subtle and quiet terror of SS2's horrific style).

CLOCKTOWER
RESIDENT EVIL
SILENT HILL
THE SUFFERING
(These were all listed in the top 10 scariest games. Influences from these games should be considered.)

ETERNAL DARKNESS
(For the heavy Lovecraftian influence, and the video game's unpredictable behavior).

DOOM 3
(For its graphic effect, primarily).

LEGACY OF KAIN:
BLOOD OMEN
SOUL REAVER 1 & 2
(The stories of these games are like retail adaptions of the works John Milton, Edmund Spencer, William Shakespeare, and maybe a bit of Lord Byron, compounded into an awesome work of epic gothic fantasy. Both BLOOD OMEN and SOUL REAVER have a similar story to BLOOD 1. With BLOOD OMEN'S similarity to BLOOD 1: man is betrayed and killed, man is resurrected into a menacing form by an evil being, and has a thirst for blood. With SOUL REAVER, it's: servant of someone akin to a deity is betrayed and killed by his master, is resurrected and enacts vengeance upon all of his master's other monstrous servants. The epic story, the writing, and the twists-within-twists plot must be used as an influence).

THE CROW
SPAWN
(Elements from each could serve BLOOD 3's story and character).

BIOSHOCK
(Perhaps for the enemy behavior).

QUAKE 1
RISE OF THE TRIAD
(QUAKE for the medieval and ancient mood for some of the locales and for the puzzle based boss fights, and RISE OF THE TRIAD for the cultists, the level scenery, and some of the boss fights)
In all fairness BEAST, I'm not sure Blood 3 needs much from any of those games. Some of the last ones you mentioned predate BLOOD, they were bypassed by in large save where they have features intersecting blood's attributes in some fashion. There are a few niceties that might benefit B3, say ragdoll physics and what not. Graphical improvements are a must, personally though I feel that 2.5 D gaming's ridiculously high frame rate should be just as much an integral feature as postmortem blood squirts were, so the most up to date engine with the best graphical features would be eliminated. Same goes for large complex maps, they're actually more important than high end graphics. I don't know if touchdown even develops Jupiter anymore as the last FEAR game didn't use it. Early jupiter (no xl) should handle everything nicely.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Fri Jan 27, 2012 02:50 am

NOt-mINe, but still, even though most of the games are old school, they feature elements that I feel are integral for the sequel I have in mind. Besides, most of the games in my post were listed not for their storylines, level design, interactivity, and atmosphere, not for their graphics. The I agree: large complex maps are better than high-resolution graphics. I don't know if a modern developer can get away with the early Jupiter engine, but it could be enhanced and expanded upon to look modern.

@Tchernobog
Tchernobog wrote:You know what I think would be a good inspiration if ever there was a new Blood game? Duke Nukem Forever. :o

By looking at DNF, I mean looking at what it did wrong and what it should have been. Just look at DNF's faults and take the solutions as a check list.

Like any successor to a Build game, many of the environments should be entertainingly interactive. DNF had simple quicktime events taking the place of real interaction. You should have the freedom to do what you want, rather than what the game designer scripted for you. The objects that are provided are just set dressing, it is up to you to make the play as it were. Think of the fun you had in the Dark Carnival level from the original Blood, for instance.

They should also be vast and creative. Duke Nukem Forever had only about four real settings, and had you slog through all of them for way to long. Looking back to Duke3D as well as Blood and Blood II, what they did well was incorporate one cool idea for a setting into each level. Referring back to Blood's first episode, the Train level is probably the most iconic here. And they should be long and complex, beating off the modern trend of linearity that you hear Yahtzee complain about all the time.

And yes, add some proper water puzzles. The ones in DNF do not count, as they suffered from much of the same scripted linearity as the rest of the game. We want ones like we had in the final episodes of Blood. It is sad that the water trope has sadly died out in so many modern games.

You get those right, and you have a damn decent game already. And we do need a game like this, to revive proper old school shooters for the gamers of today. That is why so many were willing to give DNF the benefit of the doubt right up until the end, as they really wanted someone to make a game like this. Sadly, DNF failed to deliver on this point.

Looking over your list, I am glad to see Postal 2 and especially Apocalypse Weekend show up. AW especially gave me a very good Build engine vibe, and both show how you can accomplish much of what I was saying on a more modern engine. AW also had the right weapons and balance to make the gunplay (or machete play!) extremely satisfying, in a similar vain to what Blood II managed to accomplish. There is also the Eternal Damnation mod for Postal 2 which was very Blood like and was even somewhat inspired by it. It had a wide weapon variety (mostly nicked from the AWP mod, but still), vast and creative locales, and even some of the dark city vibe from the earlier levels of Blood II.

By the way, slightly off topic, but if you want to play some more heavily Lovecraftian games, I can not recommend Frictional Games' titles strongly enough. They are not really action focused, so not as pertinent when it comes to making a Blood game, but are great horror games in their own right. Just thought I would give them a shout out while I was here.
Tchernobog: you are beautiful, man! DNF is exactly what I should've included. And I agree: by learning from the mistakes of DNF's development, one can achieve to make a BLOOD sequel to the level which DNF should've been. I once toyed with the idea that after DNF 2001 was finished (when they were still using the Unreal 1.5 engine), that BLOOD 3 could be developed with that engine. It's a shame that the current DNF cannot be modded (due to some weird mentality of Gearbox, who now owns the DN copyright), nor are the early builds of DNF from 1998 to 2001 are available to the public.

I'm glad that you liked that I included Postal 2 and Apocalypse Weekend in my list. For some reason, AW feels sort of in the vein of BLOOD 2: THE NIGHTMARE LEVELS, and has a quality which I wish that expansion should have had. I've checked out the trailer for Eternal Damnation: those guys did an awesome job.

I recalled one influence that I should have mentioned from BIOSHOCK, and that involves the morality based gameplay with innocents, and the biosocialogical behavior of the enemies. I considered the idea of Caleb, after killing redneck Cabalists, was left with their child, and he had to choose whether to take the kid into his care or not. It's out of character for Caleb, I know, which is why I wouldn't include it.

Of course, there's the element from UNREAL, where after saving the pacifist civilians from being humorously gibbed, they end up doing favors for you, and reveal to you secret passageways or hidden supply depots.

I need write a design document as some point just to organize what BLOOD 3 should be specifically like.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by TheDerangedOne » Fri Jan 27, 2012 06:42 pm

BEAST wrote: ~snip

I recalled one influence that I should have mentioned from BIOSHOCK, and that involves the morality based gameplay with innocents, and the biosocialogical behavior of the enemies. I considered the idea of Caleb, after killing redneck Cabalists, was left with their child, and he had to choose whether to take the kid into his care or not. It's out of character for Caleb, I know, which is why I wouldn't include it.

Of course, there's the element from UNREAL, where after saving the pacifist civilians from being humorously gibbed, they end up doing favors for you, and reveal to you secret passageways or hidden supply depots.

I need write a design document as some point just to organize what BLOOD 3 should be specifically like.
Well, if Caleb still has any ounce of humanity left inside him, he could become a bit more morally inclined, but that will not be the case in a prequel to blood in any case, a sequel to blood 2 maybe, but not a prequel to blood. There's also a general element that I'd like to recommend: corpse looting.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Fri Jan 27, 2012 07:59 pm

Good call, TheDerangedOne. My ideas are mainly for a prequel to BLOOD 2, rather than for the prequel for BLOOD 1 (the BLOOD 1 prequel is mainly DustyStyx's concept, which I hope to learn more about when TRANSFUSION makes more progress). Overall, the sequel I have in mind is a combination of old Western setting and the early Cabal setting previous to BLOOD (for flashbacks and training), a recreation of some levels from the orginal BLOOD , and whole of the game would take just some months or a year after Tchernobog's demise. I liked the idea of Caleb in between BLOOD 1 and 2 feeling some ounces of humanity within himself. All the more reason why I want to include the Caligastro character I have in mind: a Crusader, either a Knights Templar (they weren't cultists, no matter what the greedy French king says) or a Teutonic Knight, who was once the leader of the Chosen in the mid or far east, who became an undead immortal like Caleb. He would be his moral counselor.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by TheDerangedOne » Fri Jan 27, 2012 08:29 pm

BEAST wrote:Good call, TheDerangedOne. My ideas are mainly for a prequel to BLOOD 2, rather than for the prequel for BLOOD 1 (the BLOOD 1 prequel is mainly DustyStyx's concept, which I hope to learn more about when TRANSFUSION makes more progress). Overall, the sequel I have in mind is a combination of old Western setting and the early Cabal setting previous to BLOOD (for flashbacks and training), a recreation of some levels from the orginal BLOOD , and whole of the game would take just some months or a year after Tchernobog's demise. I liked the idea of Caleb in between BLOOD 1 and 2 feeling some ounces of humanity within himself. All the more reason why I want to include the Caligastro character I have in mind: a Crusader, either a Knights Templar (they weren't cultists, no matter what the greedy French king says) or a Teutonic Knight, who was once the leader of the Chosen in the mid or far east, who became an undead immortal like Caleb. He would be his moral counselor.
Right, Just re-read the first post here, spaced on the number and just remembered blood, so I thought it was the first one. But now that I've brought up the concept:
A prequel to blood where you play through calebs acts before the cult and his rise to becoming leader of his group of Chosen would be a rather interesting game if pulled off correctly.
Back to the main topic of discussion;
I think that for every angel there needs to be a devil, so he'd have two moral counselers who always take opposite sides on the morality of the matter, but in some or most cases there's a better, third way to solve the problem with significantly better gain from all fronts, both good and evil...
We could even have them switch roles from time to time, based on their views on new events being treated slanting in the advisors' personal preferance and opinion of what needs to be done, the two would always oppose one another, however, and may fight from time to time but grudgingly acknowledge that they need one another to survive the ordeal of the game. (By that I mean they won't kill one another no matter how much they want to.)
... Why are my ideas starting to make this sound like a AAA title action RPG?
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Wed Feb 01, 2012 07:06 am

My Crusader character is also kind of G-Man figure next to a Caligastro figure, in that he monitors Caleb's progress during strange intervals, and gives him abstract advice from time to time. Me and friend thought of having sections of the game played from the Crusader's point of view: they would involve instances of his own bloodlust, his disollusionment with the Crusades, his introduction to the Cabal, the murder of his various lovers, and the time he was disavowed by Tchernobog for his refusal to be the god's next incarnation.

We had the idea of a group of Neo-Chosen, who similarly fight along the lines of the squad-based mentality of HALF-LIFE 1's assassins. There are better A.I. capabilities nowadays, but no other game I've seen has tried to expand on those kinds of situations of being in a room with intelligent, agile, and scary hunters. The idea of mine was for them to be embodiments of Lovecraftian psycho-terror: that they are unlike any enemy Caleb has faced before. They are so cunning and intelligent, that they will never miss an opportunity to take you by surprise and scare the living **** out of you. Plenty of cover, slip-in-slip-out, tap on your shoulder when you least expect it, occasionally jumping out of the closet tactics. Although the A.I. capabilties sound too advanced, perhaps the BIOSHOCK veined A.I. might work with this sort of game. Actually, this idea for the Neo-Chosen kind of resembles the Oblivion guys from TUROK 2: SEEDS OF EVIL, in that they keep trying to distract you from your goal.

The leader of the Neo-Chosen would be Caleb's antithesis, is more than evil double, who has a fascination with Caleb which gets on his nerves. Whether the Neo-Chosen can turn into Plasma Pak Beasts, I'm uncertain. I'd like for them to just remain as they are, or if they should transform, mutate into something unique and original for each (a la SOUL REAVER).
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by TheDerangedOne » Wed Feb 01, 2012 08:25 pm

I was thinking something along the lines of how in Bioshock you have a good (Brigid Tenenbaum) and a bad voice (Atlas/Frank Fontain) for gathering ADAM and a few key choices in Bioshock 2. (killing the 3 key characters or showing them mercy.)

From my mindset, the crusader's tended to have a rather black and white view of things, even though some things are in the wrong categories of that viewing (black and white.)...
... .... ... ... IDEA!

Well, we have a western cowboy for the first and foremost main character, a crusader which is considered to be somewhere around the middle east, so how about the other is grounded in eastern culture, like a ninja or something?
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Thu Feb 02, 2012 05:41 am

TheDerangedOne wrote:I was thinking something along the lines of how in Bioshock you have a good (Brigid Tenenbaum) and a bad voice (Atlas/Frank Fontain) for gathering ADAM and a few key choices in Bioshock 2. (killing the 3 key characters or showing them mercy.)

From my mindset, the crusader's tended to have a rather black and white view of things, even though some things are in the wrong categories of that viewing (black and white.)...
... .... ... ... IDEA!

Well, we have a western cowboy for the first and foremost main character, a crusader which is considered to be somewhere around the middle east, so how about the other is grounded in eastern culture, like a ninja or something?
If you want a third guy, I was thinking maybe a Chosen priest who belonged to a Chinese order of the Cabal. According to the BLOOD 2 timeline, Tchernobog possesed the body of a Buddhist priest, and his order was in Asia for awhile I think.
From BLOOD wiki
The 5th Incarnation

Tchernobog took the body of a Buddhist high priest and this bent the Cabal into a religious regiment where only the pure where allowed to remain as members. They holed up in temples and practiced rituals of patience and control.
Even though Monolith claims for BLOOD 2 that Tchernobog was not so bad until the 16th incarnation, and that the Cabal cultists under the 5th mainly learned to discipline themselves (like the Shaolin, and most Buddhist sects), I'm sure the Cabal in this phase was still rather freaky (since it combines Buddhism with Lovecraftian occultism) I was thinking that perhaps the Chinese sect of the Cabal would adept a blood based form of martial arts, and supreme mystical abilties similar to those of the Lama-trained assassin in the KUNG FU episode "Blood of the Dragon, Part 2," heavy-laden with the cosmic power of Lovecraft's Elder Things and Intergalactic Demigods.

Here's an example of the Lama occult abilities in the episode I mentioned. Be warned, the writers have two Chinese assassins who for some reason combine Japanese weapons and styles with their own Kung Fu abilites. Whatever some may think, samurai fighting and ninja fighting have nothing to do with Kung Fu!!! There's also some bad acting, but nevermind. The scene begins on 3:05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCkZFnP5PM

Unreal, isn't it? Now imagine the priests using those trances to summon glimpses of horrors from the countless dimensions out there, way beyond Tchernobog's own. With the martial arts, which I claimed were blood based, I meant that they are gritty and brutal, to point where plenty of blood is spilt. The monks have to learn how to cope with drastic losses of blood, and still be able to keep their composure and stamina. The blood they lose is gathered in bowels, and burned as incense to the offerings of Tchernobog.

The Monk, who is undead like Caleb and the Crusader, is well trained both in the martial and mystical arts of his sect. He is patient, but very vague, and ruthless when he has to be. Why he was disavowed is a mystery. Maybe Tchernobog was not as genlte in the 5th incarnation as they thought he was, or maybe the Monk is not as good as one may think. Maybe it's Tchernobog assuming the guise of the Buddhist he possesed for his 5th incarnation? I'm thinking of Caleb learning various abilties from the Monk, as he does from the Crusader, so that we could see Caleb use his hands and feet, and Ancient Chinese weaponary, against his foes.

On the topic of ninja, I was thinking of Caleb visiting Japan as some point. In my years old post, BLOOD 3: INNER CARNAGE, I was thinking of him globehopping from various parts of Europe, Asia, and even the Middle East (I had thought of making the game's climax in Jerusalem, because of the Crusades). The encounters with the Crusader and Monk I think may happen after Caleb has been acquainted enough with the classic enemies and characters, so that when these mentor figures arrive, Caleb's world becomes more intense.

What's you're take, TheDerangedOne?
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe » Thu Feb 02, 2012 08:07 am

Didn't mean to interrupt the conversation but just have to say:

Kung Fu, what an awsome series!
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by TheDerangedOne » Thu Feb 02, 2012 06:43 pm

BEAST wrote:
TheDerangedOne wrote:I was thinking something along the lines of how in Bioshock you have a good (Brigid Tenenbaum) and a bad voice (Atlas/Frank Fontain) for gathering ADAM and a few key choices in Bioshock 2. (killing the 3 key characters or showing them mercy.)

From my mindset, the crusader's tended to have a rather black and white view of things, even though some things are in the wrong categories of that viewing (black and white.)...
... .... ... ... IDEA!

Well, we have a western cowboy for the first and foremost main character, a crusader which is considered to be somewhere around the middle east, so how about the other is grounded in eastern culture, like a ninja or something?
If you want a third guy, I was thinking maybe a Chosen priest who belonged to a Chinese order of the Cabal. According to the BLOOD 2 timeline, Tchernobog possesed the body of a Buddhist priest, and his order was in Asia for awhile I think.
From BLOOD wiki
The 5th Incarnation

Tchernobog took the body of a Buddhist high priest and this bent the Cabal into a religious regiment where only the pure where allowed to remain as members. They holed up in temples and practiced rituals of patience and control.
Even though Monolith claims for BLOOD 2 that Tchernobog was not so bad until the 16th incarnation, and that the Cabal cultists under the 5th mainly learned to discipline themselves (like the Shaolin, and most Buddhist sects), I'm sure the Cabal in this phase was still rather freaky (since it combines Buddhism with Lovecraftian occultism) I was thinking that perhaps the Chinese sect of the Cabal would adept a blood based form of martial arts, and supreme mystical abilities similar to those of the Lama-trained assassin in the KUNG FU episode "Blood of the Dragon, Part 2," heavy-laden with the cosmic power of Lovecraft's Elder Things and Intergalactic Demigods.

Here's an example of the Lama occult abilities in the episode I mentioned. Be warned, the writers have two Chinese assassins who for some reason combine Japanese weapons and styles with their own Kung Fu abilites. Whatever some may think, samurai fighting and ninja fighting have nothing to do with Kung Fu!!! There's also some bad acting, but never mind. The scene begins on 3:05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCkZFnP5PM

Unreal, isn't it? Now imagine the priests using those trances to summon glimpses of horrors from the countless dimensions out there, way beyond Tchernobog's own. With the martial arts, which I claimed were blood based, I meant that they are gritty and brutal, to point where plenty of blood is spilt. The monks have to learn how to cope with drastic losses of blood, and still be able to keep their composure and stamina. The blood they lose is gathered in bowels, and burned as incense to the offerings of Tchernobog.

The Monk, who is undead like Caleb and the Crusader, is well trained both in the martial and mystical arts of his sect. He is patient, but very vague, and ruthless when he has to be. Why he was disavowed is a mystery. Maybe Tchernobog was not as gentle in the 5th incarnation as they thought he was, or maybe the Monk is not as good as one may think. Maybe it's Tchernobog assuming the guise of the Buddhist he possessed for his 5th incarnation? I'm thinking of Caleb learning various abilities from the Monk, as he does from the Crusader, so that we could see Caleb use his hands and feet, and Ancient Chinese weaponry, against his foes.

On the topic of ninja, I was thinking of Caleb visiting Japan as some point. In my years old post, BLOOD 3: INNER CARNAGE, I was thinking of him globehopping from various parts of Europe, Asia, and even the Middle East (I had thought of making the game's climax in Jerusalem, because of the Crusades). The encounters with the Crusader and Monk I think may happen after Caleb has been acquainted enough with the classic enemies and characters, so that when these mentor figures arrive, Caleb's world becomes more intense.

What's you're take, TheDerangedOne?
The only thing that I can say that's a bit off with this is that after a certain amount of time, no matter how disciplined you are, blood loss is lethal, and before that would cause people being delirious, followed by slowness and lack of reflexes because there's not enough blood to power all the body's muscles and functions, while undead would be immune to this, blood loss would also mean that they use up a finite reserve of power, if the disavowed chosen follow the same rules of regular undead that I know of that is...
It could be more that they have a control over their body, capable of regulating their blood flow and how some of their organs work, such as being able to make themselves appear dead by slowing their pulse down REALLY low, or are able to re-route their blood flow to avoid bleeding out from some wounds. As the cultists are still human for the most part, and last I checked undead had a finite amount of blood in them, they could use the blood of their foes and victims to do certain things, rather than use their own as I have gathered from what you have said.
I mean, being trained to still function when having a large amount of lost blood is one thing, loosing that much blood on purpose is another thing entirely and is quite stupid, and last I checked, while mostly arrogant and blind to some things, monks tended to be quite smart.

But then again, the Cabal are something like extreme masochists aren't they? Not to mention a bit wrong in the head... well except the chosen, which are as straight thinking as you can get in this scenario, but the main stream Cabal probably wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice themselves to pull of all sorts of feats of power, often not realizing they wouldn't live long enough to see its effects.

Another thing is that Kung Fu is more of a Chinese thing than Japanese, I think, especially during the era of the samurai and their fall, ninja's do some hand to hand combat, but mostly use what would be considered "dirty fighting", using weapons meant to hinder their opponent and wear them down faster, combined with hit and run attacks similar to guerrilla warfare. Ninja's were acrobats more than martial artists really.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by BEAST » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Another thing is that Kung Fu is more of a Chinese thing than Japanese, I think, especially during the era of the samurai and their fall, ninja's do some hand to hand combat, but mostly use what would be considered "dirty fighting", using weapons meant to hinder their opponent and wear them down faster, combined with hit and run attacks similar to guerrilla warfare. Ninja's were acrobats more than martial artists really.
Absolutely. That's what I was writing before I posted the link. I don't even know why the creators of KUNG FU f****d that up in that episode. The Chinese and Japanese hate each other, or at least despise each other culturaly. Why the Hell would Chinese assassins train with Japanese ones? And what is with one of the Chinese assassins trained with the Samurai in Japan and in the Code of Bushido??!?! THAT'S TOTALLY USELESS AGAINST A SHAOLIN PRIEST!!! The point of Bushido to abide by a strict code of conduct, and Japanese assassins have ALWAYS moved around this conduct. They broke the rules, which made them efficient. Why should Chinese assassins abide by such limitations that have no use to them, especially when its origin comes from a country who they REALLY dislike. I can understand Chinese assassins making use of Japanese swords, because those swords were so valuable that there were even some Chinese who bought them. Fusing the weapon with Chinese martial arts is acceptable; a samurai trained Chinese assassin against Shaolin Kung Fu is stupidity. Well, to be fair, the show was still very new for the time, but it makes wonder who were the idiots who couldn't tell the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese. It would have been much original if the writers chose to have the two assassins trained in unique forms of Kung Fu that are polar opposite to Caine's own various styles.
You're right about the ninja, too. They were dirty fighters and acrobats. Even though their cool, I don't think the Ninja, though they were scorned by most of Feudal Japanese society, like the Chinese either. The Chinese probably had assassins dressed in black, because its practical, but their assassin groups are different. I wish I knew the names and history of these different clans are. Apparently, Ninja aren't the only assassins to have existed in Japan. According to SHOGUN, there's one group called the Amida Tong, who supposedly descended from Buddhist zealots. They dress in black, too. Only one Amida Tong assassin appears, but when the Ninja come in, they are a whole army, and even bring grenades with them.
KUNG FU should have had James Clavell write for them. He did write SHOGUN, but he also wrote two books dealing with Chinese culture during the 19th Century: TAI-PAN and NOBLE HOUSE. I think he understood the mentality of the Chinese, as well as the Japanese, much more thoroughly than the writers of KUNG FU did. I love the show, but God, it needed better cultural intelligence.
The only thing that I can say that's a bit off with this is that after a certain amount of time, no matter how disciplined you are, blood loss is lethal, and before that would cause people being delirious, followed by slowness and lack of reflexes because there's not enough blood to power all the body's muscles and functions, while undead would be immune to this, blood loss would also mean that they use up a finite reserve of power, if the disavowed chosen follow the same rules of regular undead that I know of that is...

It could be more that they have a control over their body, capable of regulating their blood flow and how some of their organs work, such as being able to make themselves appear dead by slowing their pulse down REALLY low, or are able to re-route their blood flow to avoid bleeding out from some wounds. As the cultists are still human for the most part, and last I checked undead had a finite amount of blood in them, they could use the blood of their foes and victims to do certain things, rather than use their own as I have gathered from what you have said.
I mean, being trained to still function when having a large amount of lost blood is one thing, loosing that much blood on purpose is another thing entirely and is quite stupid, and last I checked, while mostly arrogant and blind to some things, monks tended to be quite smart.

But then again, the Cabal are something like extreme masochists aren't they? Not to mention a bit wrong in the head... well except the chosen, which are as straight thinking as you can get in this scenario, but the main stream Cabal probably wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice themselves to pull of all sorts of feats of power, often not realizing they wouldn't live long enough to see its effects.
Excellent points, TheDerangedOne. I guess I was overdoing it on the masochistic side of the Cabal. I should keep in mind, that the disturbing masochism probably didn't occur until Tchernobog's 16th incarnation, but it was probably masochistic enough. You're right, it is stupid to lose copious amounts of blood on purpose, even though its just to illustrate the masochism of Cabal. At least, you like the idea of being trained to function after losing a large amount of blood in a fight. So long as it is not on purpose, that's a good thing. The whole point of the training is to keep to maintain as much blood as possible in your body, to the point where you can't bleed at all. I like your ideas about the training, especially the part where the monks can learn to direct the opponent's blood against him. Caleb, when learning this, can be able to cause an foe to die by causing the blood within him to hemorrage his organs, or he could use the blood of an enemy as projectiles.

If all this actually happened, Tchernobog must have really screwed up the religious mindset of the Buddhist monk he possessed.
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by N0t_mINe » Fri Feb 03, 2012 04:08 pm

Kung Fu, what historically /culturally inaccurate series!

*Goes back to doing the robot*
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Re: Influences and Ideas for a BLOOD 3

Post by TheDerangedOne » Mon Feb 06, 2012 08:22 pm

BEAST wrote: Excellent points, TheDerangedOne. I guess I was overdoing it on the masochistic side of the Cabal. I should keep in mind, that the disturbing masochism probably didn't occur until Tchernobog's 16th incarnation, but it was probably masochistic enough. You're right, it is stupid to lose copious amounts of blood on purpose, even though its just to illustrate the masochism of Cabal. At least, you like the idea of being trained to function after losing a large amount of blood in a fight. So long as it is not on purpose, that's a good thing. The whole point of the training is to keep to maintain as much blood as possible in your body, to the point where you can't bleed at all. I like your ideas about the training, especially the part where the monks can learn to direct the opponent's blood against him. Caleb, when learning this, can be able to cause an foe to die by causing the blood within him to hemorrage his organs, or he could use the blood of an enemy as projectiles.
Well, we'd have to make the abilities needing ammunition, otherwise they would be "too all powerful" How about Caleb lacks the training and mindset to really use his enemies blood to cause them to die from organ rupture/failure, but instead can use blood packs instead? I was going to suggest enemy hearts as another source of power, but if I remember correctly, in the Blood series (Blood 1 for certain), enemy hearts were the health kits of the game.
BEAST wrote: If all this actually happened, Tchernobog must have really screwed up the religious mindset of the Buddhist monk he possessed.
Are you trying to say that it would be normal for someone who has never been possessed before to be able to stay as they were prior to possession? :P


Well, actually now that I'm REALLY thinking about this, maybe we should scrap the Caleb being trained by the others, and have more playable sections for the European and the Asian, like flashbacks, levels that feature them instead of Caleb, etc. since if we gave Caleb powers in a prequel to blood 2 that don't appear in blood 2, we'd be screwing something up, since Caleb wouldn't be one to forget things he learned in the ways of killing.
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