Kurt's Plea: split 20091008

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DustyStyx
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Postby DustyStyx » Fri Oct 09, 2009 06:06 am

BoN: Don't you realize that Corbin is basically trying to sell stolen material/ideas from other games/mods on the Sega Dreamcast?
Clari87: Amazon has a system set up to do exactly that. I pay for a bunch of CD's to be made, and then the end user pays Amazon to get it created/shipped.


BoN, making a port to the Dreamcast isn't quite the same as "selling", nore is having a donation button. It might be annoying, or rude to some, but it's not illegal to have a tip jar.

Now about this Amazon business, I DO think that having Amazon run off 50 or so copies of a CD and selling them through Amazon would actually be... selling. Corbin, I can understand wanting a well packaged distribution, but that is going to far with it because at some point, some one would be making a profit off the sale. You can bet Amazon is making money off that kind of program, someplace. That said, I'm not sure Amazon would go for it if they knew you were distributing third party, copyrighted works; even if you were to sell the CDs for "cost only". I'll grant BoN that exchange in so far as trying to sell a packaged copy of the port through Amazon. That's almost like sending in a burned copy of the Blood CD, or any other game, and trying to get them to run off new discs to turn around and sell as actual box set.

Granted the same logic holds if you download an ISO copy via your ISP, at some point your ISP is making money off your data transfers... but that's just being nit-picky.

Now, I'm still at a loss as to the claim that Corbin has actually ripped off a significant portion of Kurt's work. On the surface, they seem to be different games entirely. One is on Lithtech, one is on a Doom engine. One seems to be dark, moody, and full of teen angst the other is more like Blood2 done with a Blood1 treatment. No, I haven't played either one, but since this whole thing started because Kurt really seems to want to press the issue, I want a clear answer to where these claims are coming from.

And, no, I don't want to read the "Please delete my account" thread on Postmortem. I tried before, but the whole thing made my head hurt. There also seems to be a lot of back story that is involved to fully grasp the debths that thread sinks to.
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Postby I Live...AGAIN » Fri Oct 09, 2009 06:29 am

kurt wrote:You are entitled to your views Joe, as is everyone. I'll make sure that you are not allowed to play Resurrection when its completed.


I seriously doubt you will ever release anything, also I could care less.
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Postby Corbin » Fri Oct 09, 2009 08:07 am

Dusty wrote:I'll grant BoN that exchange in so far as trying to sell a packaged copy of the port through Amazon. That's almost like sending in a burned copy of the Blood CD, or any other game, and trying to get them to run off new discs to turn around and sell as actual box set.

Ooohh...yeah for sure. I see what you're saying. I just thought that I paid a flat rate for 50 cd's, then they just take the orders in. I thought it was calculated by how much we paid, not by a per-disc/reverse profit kind of thing. I see what BON was talking about now. I can see how one would easily get confused. I meant to have someone simply pay for shipping or creation of the box set for DC. I'll have to find an alternative or work something out somewhow.

That being said, sorry I yelled earlier Bon. It's just that I got frustrated by our argument and when you butted in, I kind of got upset. So I'm sorry man. Eventually I'd like to get our side-fued ironed out. Now's not that bad of a time to start ;)

Dusty wrote:Now, I'm still at a loss as to the claim that Corbin has actually ripped off a significant portion of Kurt's work.

The quote stems from what I said to Kurt on his ModDB page back near February or something like that (near the top). He posted a video of the player running through a sewer system, and I liked what I saw. I told him that I was going to try and recreate it in the engine. Now, I didn't mean it to sound like I was directly ripping him off. You can actually see a remnant of this in our own teaser trailer, but that level has been removed, as a lot of content did.

When you code for a 16-plus year old engine, you have to look for semi-modern, not totally modern, architectural designs to get some sort of inspiration. That's what B2R was to me, so I wanted to see what exactly our engine was capable of. I think he took it as reverse, though, and assumed I was out to rip him off. That was never true, however, his mod was the only other "next-gen" mod in development so I felt like his was a big brother of sorts. Something I could compare work to and vice versa. I don't count the other Blood mods because they are straight and faithful, and you all know mine or Kurt's aren't quite that strict.

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Another claim came from his blog, when he said these two screenshots looked so similar that I was copying him. Now, I don't mean to be an ass, but what's Blood without trees, churches, grass, etc etc? Kurt deliberately said I ripped off his design. I had never previously seen his screenshot until he put up a comparison. To further that, my level designer [Fiend] signed on to let him know that he developed the level himself. I am not a level designer either. I keep my whole Hypertension team out of this mess, but he felt very offended and asked him up front, with no real answer from Kurt. Then Kurt somewhow said the grass in the picture were sprites, when it's really a model, but that last part doesn't really matter ;)

I don't want anyone to say anything else about the topic, what's said has been said. You can interpret it how you want, I'm sure Kurt will have more to add, but I simply answered a question. I really don't feel like arguing this one. I just want to get past this.

I want to come to some sort of an agreement with Kurt. I want this to stop so we can both move on. It's about time we do...
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Postby kurt » Fri Oct 09, 2009 08:24 am

I Live...AGAIN wrote:I seriously doubt you will ever release anything, also I could care less.


I have already released a playable demo as well as over a dozen videos. You built a level around my early Alpha. There are also over 2 years worth of screenshots demonstrating my work and progress. But with people like you in the community Joe, there is no reason that I should even want to release anything ever again. You have done nothing but argue with me in this thread and dismiss everything that I have said. Apparently you have some serious issues with anyone speaking honestly, disagreeing with you, or confronting you with obvious evidence.

For example, you claim that I'm laughable and paranoid for claiming that Clari is imitating and copying my work. But Clari himself has already publicly admitted to it.

Clari87 wrote:"I'm going to try and recreate that shot in Hypertension..
I swear kurt is the biggest single reason I continue to work on my game."


Clari87 wrote:""Also, the latest screenshot I uploaded was partly inspired by that sewer video you uploaded, I really liked it. It added a lot of ambiance that wasn't there in Blood 2, so I took the idea and made a big section of a level in the same vein."


Yes Clari, that screenshot is a mirror image of my own that is located on the B2R site. It was created as a test to determine whether it would be imitated, and you failed. I also know for a fact that you visited my website plenty of times that month, but you can lie and deny it if you prefer.

I have also created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. Clari has created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. I could go on and on and say more, but what's the point? Joe isn't interested in the truth, or in any evidence at all. His mind is closed and he doesn't care, and that's his choice of course. But if he's not interested and could care less, then why does he keep returning to this thread?

I have attempted to end this discussion on the previous page because Joe didn't want me to say anymore. I hope this final post of mine will make you happy Joe.

Everyone will get to play Resurrection some day except for Joe. :(

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Postby Corbin » Fri Oct 09, 2009 08:51 am

...ugh. I want to throw in the towel so bad. I've said everything I've needed to say, tried to apologize to you, all this stuff, and yet you persist.

Do I really need to get this personal with you Kurt? Finally?

kurt wrote:Yes Clari, that screenshot is a mirror image of my own that is located on the B2R site. It was created as a test to determine whether it would be imitated, and you failed. I also know for a fact that you visited my website plenty of times that month, but you can lie and deny it if you prefer.

Sure, I did, but Fiend didn't. Are you calling my own teammates liars and deniers? Why would they want anything to do with your project? Seriously dude, now you're starting to get delusional. I'm sure they would love to hop on here and give you a piece of their mind, but I'm not going to start that again. They just ignore it. I tried to for the longest time, but enough is enough. It's time you hear the truth. AS A DEVELOPER TO ANOTHER DEVELOPER.


The reason I said those things to you dude was because you were hella beat down. Nobody was interested in helping you who could, you weren't finding the responses you were looking for. All this work for nothing, as you used to threat to quit your project. So I gave them to you, and you spit them back out at me. You treat any admirer like s***, or anyone who wants to sit you up higher than you ever have. I'm surprised BON follows you so well, you've beat his ideas, confidence, and probably any willingness to work with you on your project. It was a serious mistake to try and encourage, and help you. Your character totally destroyed our friendship. It destroyed any work ethic I wanted to establish with you. I lept, bounds and bounds, to help you out Kurt, and this is how you treat me? If not me, my team, who knows almost nothing of you and your little game you've been working oh-so-hard for 2 years? I still have that chunk of convo when you got EXTREMELY upset for me gaining team members really quick. I still have that. Want me to bring that up?

Compared to what my team has been through, you haven't been through anything. I am very proud of what we've been able to accomplish, I love and relish them. When we get this thing released it will be one of the happiest moments of my life.

You were the first with that little destructive photoshop image. YOU DID THAT.
Is it sinking it yet? You were the sole effing reason this started. Even BON praised my project in the beginning, he really sided with it. All into it, like a fan should be to any sort of project. Everyone did. POSTMORTEM DID. Even you, until you yourself said some inappropriate things that really hurt my feelings. As a developer that is seriously disappointing. It's all there. Go look. You were the reason a riot erupted. You couldn't sit with the fact that my mod was similar to yours. It would've been the same no matter what game logic I used. It was going to happen sooner or later. I'm actually glad it was me you did this to. I'm a fighter, I stuck with it, and I will finish TDGMods' Hypertension.

Now I can finally say that I'm not the reason you are angry Kurt. You can't keep blaming me. You were acting like this before I started work on my videogame, don't get mad at me. You would always tell people how fed up and tired you were to gain pity points, I can go back in the past and get this but it's seriously, really redundant right now. I'm tired of looking back at skeletons. I'll keep them around as reminders, sure, but I won't abandon what made me who I am. You shouldn't either. What happened to you Kurt? Looking back at your blogs you used to be full of energy, so open to other people, and your hardships with developing for an engine nobody supports got you bitter and upset. When you started demanding attention is when it got really bad. When people starting giving my team's project support, you erupted in madness. It's all there.

You are really trying to compare a 16 year old engine with a Lithtech variant? Really?? How would those two be similar in the slightest? Do you understand how ridiculous your claims sound to people who are technologically inclined? Technologically I could not pull off what you can, and neither could you with our engine. They are on two different realms. You need to realize that. I am not using Lithtech. You are not using id Tech 1.

Don't blame Joe. Don't blame me. Don't blame Z, or Dusty, or any of us. You are the one to blame. You are the one who put the feud drama on the community. You were the one who first criticized, rather rude at that, about my project, being personal rather than professional. You started this mess. All I did was offer you a few words of encouragement and you raged it all up. You are upset because Joe has been telling you what we've all been thinking. I refuse to take blame about your drama. It was not my fault. None of this was my fault. You started this, I attempted to end it, I got very upset, you got very upset, almost a freaking year later, here we are, still at it. Why is that Kurt? You think I enjoy this? Do you?

Don't blame me. It would've happened sooner or later. You are not the master of the universe, your mod wasn't destined to be the one and only. You need to take a hard, long look at yourself.

It took Ella a lot of guts to say what she did, and I'm proud of her doing that. She cares about both of us, perhaps not in a personal matter, but do you get my point?

And I hope when you do, you can finally see. I'm done. I'm a developer, not a soap opera performer.

I program videogames. Remember when you used to do that? When it was just you and the game? Before you began blaming me for the community downturn? What about when people defected from this site to Postmortem? That surely wasn't me.

Try to take some time off. I did. I took years off. I can admit when I'm wrong. I admitted everything. But this is the present, a horizon to look to the future.

Listen to Ella's words. Either live with it or get past it and say nothing more.
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Postby kurt » Fri Oct 09, 2009 09:12 am

[quote="Clari87"][/quote]

I can't seem to get rid of that annoying buzzing noise...

Fine, whatever Clari. I tried to end this all on the previous page but you keep returning. I've had enough and I'm going to bed.


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Postby I Live...AGAIN » Fri Oct 09, 2009 09:30 am

kurt wrote:Joe isn't interested in the truth, or in any evidence at all. His mind is closed and he doesn't care, and that's his choice of course.


The "truth" is that your constant whining makes me tired of you. If your not whining about quitting your project because it's soo hard, your whining about Corbin who has pretty much ignored you for months up until this week.


kurt wrote:But if he's not interested and could care less, then why does he keep returning to this thread?


I am forced to come back just like Corbin to defend myself, from your nonsense. I really think you have become an attention whore. No one pays much attention to you so you have to have a temper tantrum like a child so everyone notices you.


kurt wrote:Everyone will get to play Resurrection some day except for Joe. :(


I dont think you heard me the first time, I could care less...
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Postby kurt » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:07 pm

Keep ignoring all of the true facts and obvious evidence that's been presented Joe, because your interpretations of reality are certainly interesting reading. People like you don't deserve all of the work that I've done, and it really makes me question why I've even bothered trying to do anything good for this community. I've worked my ass off for over 2 years, had my work imitated, and then suffered ridicule and abuse from morons in an attempt to damage my work and reputation. But you are entitled to believe whatever you like.

If I were an attention whore, I'd be posting everyday and everywhere all about Resurrection. There's certainly a lot that I could say about it, just like I used to. But I have remained silent because I am prevented from talking about it any longer, in an attempt to prevent any further work from being imitated.

If you want a temper tantrum then just try to read whatever Clari said in his last post. :shrug:

Obviously truth and evidence are irrelevant, and complex issues really do have no place here. So bring in the tumbleweed as the last few remaining members of this forum discuss nothing of any significance...
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Last edited by kurt on Fri Oct 09, 2009 01:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ella » Fri Oct 09, 2009 03:05 pm

You need to understand Kurt, Joe has generated his own intake in the situation, he's aware of what's going on, and even though (personally) to you it seems the most immoral decision to make, you can't proceed to change, or make clear of things further, no matter what's stated. Obnoxious behaviour a settlement does not create.

Further provocation will prolong this event continuously if you don't take the appropriate path, this goes to everyone involved. Confrontation is no longer a respectable decision in this case, because it has been attempted too often and has lost value, all it holds now is nonsense and immaturity. The entire Blood community shouldn't be forced to re-visit this event repeatedly, otherwise it'll cause members, even important and valued ones, to leave, and this only worsens the situation for both projects and publicity. It's incredibly easy to point the finger, but it's even easier to silence yourself within a insignificant situation that can't improve.

Corbin, although i know you're trying to redeem yourself from being generalized as the 'bad guy' but placing complete blame on Kurt in its self isn't fair. You must realise that you caused provocation towards Kurt which unfortunately released his anger in a manner which still remains present to this day, and although your actions may have not been deliberately done, you should have undertook a calmer approach and refrained from unnecessary argumentation. I hope you understand what i mean by this, everyone has played a part in the feud, everyone has given their intake, be that of unimportance or absurdity, we're all as guilty as much as the next person, because if this statement wasn't true we wouldn't still be here attempting to make amends, and failing because of communication error. Kurt, what's done has been done, and what will happen, will happen, whether we like it or not, there's very limited to no resolve. Continue to argue if you wish, but i'm just trying to say that nothing will come from it, absolutely nothing.

Both Kurt, and Corbin, you'll never be in any agreement because both of your terms and personal opinions are incompatible, it'll be nothing but a waste of time to make a settlement, even if one of you desires closure so much, it's evident that this procedure won't take effect.

There's nothing more i can say, i've tried my best to bring logic and clarity into this on-going argument, i've attempted to resolve it to common sense, and all that can be done now is acceptance of disagreement. Only then can it create any closure, even if it means no amends.
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Postby DustyStyx » Fri Oct 09, 2009 03:27 pm

Ella, I think you are over generalizing when you say the "entire blood community". I never took part in the Postmortem argument, nore have I read it. I seem to be the one that both Kurt and Corbin have come to, to try and get something to be done about the others actions. I'm still trying get a full extend of Kurt's claims.

So far we have:

• Corbin talking about selling his Dreamcast port on Amazon, and a complaint about a tip jar.
Clari87 wrote:I see what BON was talking about now. I can see how one would easily get confused. I meant to have someone simply pay for shipping or creation of the box set for DC. I'll have to find an alternative or work something out somewhow.
I'm not sure he was confused, it does seem a valid complaint, the idea is that you were going to actually sell copies. Perhaps doing a limited run and offering them as prizes would be acceptable. Or have people pay for a group production once enough folks get together to get it done, I don't see a problem with that per say. But having them done just so some one can buy a copy seems a little fishy.

• Quotes that may or may not be taken out of context.

• A pair of screenshots that do seem a little coincidental.

I think the better argument would have been to show a comparison from that grave yard show in "Blood 2 Resurrection Official Trailer - December 2008" and that shot on the right, however the stone wall topped with an iron fence motif is in Blood, E1M1:Cradle to Grave and BB1: The stronghold come to might right off the bat, probably other places as well. So Corbin's reply of "what's Blood without trees, churches, grass, etc etc?" seems to be genuine.

Kurt's claim: "I have also created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. Clari has created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. I could go on and on and say more."

Now this seems to be a valid complaint. There are a whole host of reanimation techniques that have been portrayed in the zombie media: Viruses(28 days later, Zombieland, World War Z), Parasites (Blood 2, actual biological/technological), Venusian radiation (Night of the Living Dead), Chemical reanimation (Return Of The Living Dead, Blood).

If Kurt came up with it first, did you have to copy it directly? You could have used some other form of chemical reanimation plug, intentionally poisoning the water supply, mafia dumping chemical waste, etc.. True, Blood2 had crazy scientists so, they alone should be fair game, but a Cthulhu scientist reanimating the dead in both games seems a little to specific.

Kurt wrote:I could go on and on and say more, but what's the point? Joe isn't interested in the truth, or in any evidence at all.
But I'm interested in the claims, that's why I asked for them. Clearly you feel outraged at this all, and posting at 1:30am and then at 4:00am, it seems like you were loosing sleep over the issue.
Last edited by DustyStyx on Fri Oct 09, 2009 03:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zZaRDoZz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 03:56 pm

Dusty:
Kurt's claim: "I have also created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. Clari has created a scientist that is based on HP Lovecraft, that is involved in reanimating dead tissue. I could go on and on and say more."


Before it was lost over at the postmortem, I toyed with the idea of turning the mad scientist into a boss level or (G-man like) character in 2006. I'm sure someone else had done the same before I did. Blood has it's roots in things Lovecraftian, Kurt had mentioned doing something with the scientist early on. I don't think he was specific (Dr. West) however until he added a character section to his blogger site. Blood2 the nightmare levels clearly references Dr.West in Ophelia's episode but stops short of mentioning Dr. West by name.

"Some guy at the university had come up with a re-animation serum. So these cabal guys were all over the place trying to get him".


- From ophelia's speech starting her level. That's not verbatim ofcourse.
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Postby Ella » Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:07 pm

DustyStyx wrote:Ella, I think you are over generalizing when you say the "entire blood community".


Of course at present this may seem far-fetched, but future wise (if this argument is prolonged) then realistically most active members that are part of this community (be that old or new members) will witness this event, and it's displayed in such a way enough to put people off.

Most of this had originally risen from The Postmortem, this much is true, but it has spread throughout other locations affecting newcomers to the series. The main thing you've not been able to witness is the 'loop' effect of this argument, it has repeated in numerous places and keeps persisting to do so. If you were to read up on the incidents at The Postmortem, you will undoubtedly experience déjà vu.
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Postby Blood of Nightmares » Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:21 pm

In reference to Ella's post let us go back all the way to the beginning where all this nonsense has all started and if you read everysingle page of this thread you'll understand where the rage against Corbin came from which brought the Blood community ass down hill eversince...(perhaps you'll also have a better understanding of Posty's/Kurt's argument here...)

Edit: In fact here is Kurt's (I think) very first criticism of Hypertension... and precede down from there and you'll see how things really started to kick off...
Last edited by Blood of Nightmares on Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zZaRDoZz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:45 pm

^^To the faux neutrality crowd.^^

Neutrality, where have you gotten off to? The position that holds you can support both mods or neither mod was literally burned to death at the postmortem, Largely by Mr. Fuhr and that admin thingy over there. BON, please refrain from insinuating otherwise, as your links prove the opposite of your claims a fairly high percentage of the time.

Edit: quote added.

Daedalus: Posty's admin.

Here we see a stand-alone product of dire proportions. If completed, this product, in all its maleficence, will corrupt Blood's ideals to the core and spawn its own followers; a band of freaks and heretics who have never even been touched by Blood. The dangers of this blapshemy are too great to contemplate at this time.


Yeah, Corbin sure did ratchet up the rhetoric huh?
Last edited by zZaRDoZz on Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DustyStyx » Fri Oct 09, 2009 04:45 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure I want to read all that drivel. Going over 16 + 22 pages of raving lunacy is not exactly how I want to spend my day.

If there are legitimate complains that can be sighted, reviewed and debated, please post them.

If all you are going to say is shuddupaboutyitalready! That is not being constructive. Believe me, I've tried saying that to BOTH of them numerous times in response to PMs directed at me. I believe the words I used were "pleas be patient."

Please stay on topic and produce concise evidence produced from 2006 onward, that can be examined and cross-examined.

BoN, thank you for specifying a direct part in the link. But please bring the content forward so it can be debated properly, I don't want to take something out of context, and I'd like to hear both sides of a specific argument.

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